Grace & Gratitude w/ Gary Thomas

Aaron Smith (00:14)
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Marriage After God podcast. I’m your host, Aaron Smith. Today I’m so thrilled to have a conversation with Gary Thomas, a dear brother in Christ whose wisdom has shaped so many marriages, including mine and my wife’s. In fact, his book, Sacred Marriage, is one of the first marriage books my wife and I ever read. Before we get started, don’t forget to hit that like button and subscribe wherever you’re watching or listening. Also, please do us a huge favor. Leave us a comment and a review. Those things just bless the socks off of us. Lastly, after this episode, please head over to shop.marriageaftergod.com.

and grab one of our marriage resources to not only support this show, but ultimately support your marriage. Gary is a teaching pastor at Cherry Hills Community Church in Colorado and has written over two dozen books on spiritual formation and marriage. He’s been married to his wife, Lisa, for 41 years and has three adult kids and two grandkids. Today, we’re diving into his brand new book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, dismantling 12 lies that rob your intimacy with God. It’s releasing in October.

So make sure to check that on Amazon. It’s all about renewing our minds per Romans 12 to to live the abundant reborn life Christ promises. We impact the lies like demanding a sin free life right now, which robs us of resting in Jesus’s righteousness rather than our own apathy towards the church entitlements, which many of us Christians have and we don’t realize it. Trading bitterness for gratitude by remembering we were rescued sinners. This conversation blessed me so much and I know it’s going to bless you. So please enjoy my conversation.

with Gary Thomas.

Aaron Smith (01:43)
Gary Thomas, welcome to the Marriage After God podcast. so happy to have you.

Gary Thomas (01:46)
Thanks Aaron, glad to be back.

Aaron Smith (01:49)
Gary, man, my wife and I, when you came across my emails to be on the show, so excited. We’ve been following your ministry for so long. ⁓ Your book, ⁓ Sacred Marriage, is one of the first books that we have ever read on marriage. And I cannot say with, I have to say with honesty that our ministry that we have is heavily influenced by your ministry. So I’m super honored to have you.

Gary Thomas (02:15)
I’m honored.

Thank you.

Aaron Smith (02:19)
I’m sure everyone that’s on the show already knows who you are, but I would love for you just to share who you are. I would love to know your background on your marriage and we can just get into that.

Gary Thomas (02:28)
Yeah. Well, I’m a teaching pastor here in Colorado now. We had been in Houston, Texas for about 12 years. Moved to Colorado three years ago. My wife and I have been married 41 years. have three adult kids, two grandchildren. We wish we would have 10 by now, but ⁓ kids aren’t cooperating. then, so yeah, I just love to teach and speak. ⁓ I’m a teaching pastor, so I’m not a senior pastor.

Aaron Smith (02:46)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (02:56)
I’m not a counselor or a therapist. I just, my desires help people draw closer to Christ and closer to others in that order. I think as we get closer to Christ, then we have what we need, the grace and the motivation to get closer to others.

Aaron Smith (03:13)
Yeah, whenever ⁓ like one of our models for our ministry, which came out of yours is growing closer to God and to each other. So we’re always encouraged like the end result should always be closer to God. And then the closer we draw to him, the closer we draw to Christ. That’s how we draw closer to people because it’s our love for him and it’s his outpouring of grace and mercy for us that even makes it possible for us to love people better. Otherwise we’re really selfish creatures, right?

Gary Thomas (03:36)
Right.

Aaron Smith (03:40)
What got you into this ministry? Were you a pastor before you started writing and speaking on marriage and all these things? I don’t actually know much of your background before all of this. I’d love to know that.

Gary Thomas (03:49)
Yeah.

What got me into this ministry is desperation. Aaron, I’m a man of very limited gifts. There’s not much anybody would pay me to do. I’m a mechanical idiot. I don’t like to be in charge of people. So I’m not an administrator. I’m not that great with numbers. I love to watch sports. I’m not athletically gifted. And though I love to listen to music, I’m not musically gifted. I always wanted to be a writer and I count it as one of God’s

kind blessings that he’s let it work out for me. Otherwise, my family would have had a tough time growing up. I wanted to be a writer from the time I was eight. I went after college. I went right into seminary. I was working in a college ministry, always trying to write. It felt like it was taking forever. I think the first book came out when I was about 34. And I wrote three books on spiritual formation. And that’s when Sacred Marriage came out, which

kind of changed our lives vocationally. I thought of it as a spiritual formation book. You’ve read it. So, you know, it’s not the typical how to book communication conflict of those things. But it did pretty well. And so the publisher wanted me to keep doing more books on marriage. And I was at the point where I wanted to go back to some of the spiritual formation themes, but I felt like I was a baker who wanted to bake croissants, but everybody was buying the donuts.

Aaron Smith (04:56)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Gary Thomas (05:18)
And after a

while, I’m just gonna have to make donuts. But fortunately this time, I told Zonderman, I feel like I could say, what, seven or eight books on marriage. I feel like I’ve said what I could say on marriage. And I’m really excited about this next book to get back to maintaining intimacy with God and having that life with.

Aaron Smith (05:39)
It’s there’s a there’s a principle there a good lesson for all of us and just knowing what we’re not good at Help us narrow in unlike. Okay. What does God have for us? Well, it’s probably not everything but it’s something for sure we we talked about that in our book Mary Jeffer God is like not everyone’s gifted in the same way and Finding out what you’re gifted and finding out what you’re passionate about is kind of the start of it is where that’s at But you so at 34 you you launched your first book. What were you doing vocationally before that?

Gary Thomas (05:44)
Yeah

Well, I spent a little bit of time as a campus pastor and then I went, I got a job in Washington, DC with a pro-life organization. It was then called Christian Action Council. Now it’s called Care Net. They have, ⁓ yeah, they have pregnancy resource centers all over the U.S. and Canada. And so I did that. I think it was when I had written my second book that I left that.

Aaron Smith (06:21)
I love chairknots. I didn’t realize we were working with them. Yeah.

Gary Thomas (06:37)
become self-employed as a ⁓

became senior pastor here in Colorado at Cherry Hills Community Church. He said, Gar, I’d love you to come on and be a part of the teaching team. We’d always had a view of intergenerational ministry. I’m exactly a generation older than him. He’s 41. I’m 63. So it’s been a lot of fun. It’s a great fit. ⁓ And it just works really well on the team teaching model.

Aaron Smith (07:18)
And I’m 41, so we’re the same.

Yeah, I’m a huge advocate for team teaching. think it’s a, ⁓ I know it’s necessary at times for there to be a single pastor because you can’t always have a bunch of pastors, especially at church startups. But I think the most healthy a church can be is having multiple teachers, especially multiple different generations teaching. Cause man, the 20 years you have between me and you, I don’t have. And you also came from a generation that, you know, my parents grew up in and so

Having that experience is hugely valuable. think every church should absolutely have multi-generational and multi-teachers in their repertoire of ministry. that’s really cool. Transitioning into teaching at your church, do you teach pretty regularly? it every once a month, twice a month? How do you do that?

Gary Thomas (08:13)
About

15 to 20 times a year It’ll probably be closer to 15, but then a lot of midweek things that I’m doing I’m doing I have a book making your marriage a fortress that I’m leading a group on that this fall Last fall we did a book on the virtues with the men’s ministry and just Things that come up like usually I’ll do Good Friday. He does Easter that kind of

Aaron Smith (08:18)
Okay.

That’s awesome. So you started writing around 30 something and published your first books and then you published your winning marriage book and spent years writing on marriage. Again, probably wasn’t like people always ask me like, how’d you get into like marriage? I’m like, like you desperation. ⁓ We were in the middle of just going through stuff and it came out of a let’s just talk about what God’s teaching us. And it resonated with people.

And that’s how a lot of this stuff works is you just, you’re taking that yes, you know, before God, you’re like, okay, I’ll just do this. I’ll just do that. And then all of a sudden you’re like, I need to keep doing more of this because God’s, that’s where God’s leading me. So you said you’ve written eight books on marriage and how many books in total have you written? You’ve got a huge library.

Gary Thomas (09:25)
It depends on what

you call a book, because sometimes they do spinoffs and whatnot. But I’m probably close to a couple dozen. I’m sure. Yeah.

Aaron Smith (09:32)
That’s incredible,

I love that. ⁓ I know we’re moving. We’ve got about 13 books. ⁓ only two. there’s a difference, I think. Have you done many devotionals? Like written devotionals?

Gary Thomas (09:36)
Well, talk to me in 20 years, Aaron. You guys are getting there. You’ve got it. So there you go.

I

do actually have one, two, three.

Redivotionals, think, four, four devotionals.

Aaron Smith (09:57)
Okay.

Yeah, I wouldn’t say they’re not books, but they’re just not the same level of intensity of writing a chapter book. And you know that. So we’ve only got a few of those under our belts. But we got 20 more years, 30 more years to be producing content. ⁓

Gary Thomas (10:14)
There you go. I’ve

slowed down since I’ve been on staff with a church this last, well, it’s been 15 years now since I’ve been on staff with a church, but I just believe in the church. I believe the local church is essential. And I think it’s changed the way I write and think, because I deal with real people. For 15 years, I was writing and traveling to conferences. But I think what informs my books now, real couples, real situations, real issues.

And I think it’s been God’s blessing that I’ve been able to merge these two together. I’m grateful that two churches are willing to do that because I still travel and I was up front with them when they hired me. Here’s, I got to be gone this amount of time. And so it’s working out.

Aaron Smith (10:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, I’m sure the traveling is probably lessened over the years too, right?

Gary Thomas (10:59)
Yeah, it is a little bit less. try to, like, I got to be here a certain number of Sundays or you just lose track with what’s happening here.

Aaron Smith (11:08)
Mm-hmm. That heart for church is something that, I mean, I’ve always had it, of course. And, you know, my wife and I, have an online ministry and we get emails all the time of people saying, hey, you know, I feel like I can’t talk to anyone at my church. I feel like I have no one I can talk to and share this thing. Can you help me? And I have this canned response I send and we say, we don’t do personal counseling or anything like that. You need to go to your local community. You need to connect with.

Like the very people that you don’t want to talk to, the very people that you feel like you’re afraid to talk to, the very people you feel like you can’t talk to, they’re the ones that you should talk to because they get to know you. it’s actually something over the next handful of years I’m going to be focusing on is trying to develop a way to point people back to the local church. ⁓ Because we have, you know this better than anyone, we have so much resources for individual growth. Like we can work and we can get this thing and I don’t ever have to ask.

I don’t ever have to ask anyone for help. I can go get this book. I can listen to this podcast. I can get this course and I’m good. I never have to ⁓ expose myself.

Gary Thomas (12:12)
and

a dozen sermons a week online.

Aaron Smith (12:14)
Yeah, and so it’s not none of this is bad, but it cultivates You actually talk about this one of your chapters. I believe it’s chapter 11. I’m gonna be I’m gonna get it wrong Chapter I’m trying to see which one I was about avoiding the church this edgy You you talk about that this lie of you know Self-sustaining like we don’t need the church. We could do this on our own

Gary Thomas (12:29)
yes.

Aaron Smith (12:39)
And it’s a huge lie. By the way, just say what your book’s called because we might as well get right into the so everyone knows what it is who we’re going to be talking to today.

Gary Thomas (12:44)
⁓ it’s

the life you were reborn to live, dismantling 12 lies that rob your intimacy with God. I was talking with another publishing professional on that and he goes, I like the subtitle much better than the title, but it was too late. but.

Aaron Smith (13:02)
Yeah,

sometimes it’s the subtitle that should have been the title, you know? You’re like, but they’re both there.

Gary Thomas (13:05)
Yeah. Well, people like numbers

and titles these days. I’m terrible at getting titles, but the life you were reborn to live at the point is we should have a different life before and after we’re reborn. And so often it’s not that different. And so the lies that we believe rob our intimacy with God. But you’re right. One of the lies we need to dismantle is apathy toward the church. Because we have what you said, that individualized view of the church.

or because we see that the church is a mess, which to me isn’t an excuse to avoid the church. It’s a call to get more involved in the church.

Aaron Smith (13:38)
Yeah, Johnson’s, yeah.

Yeah, what I’ve seen over the years, know, pastoring my own little home church for over six years and being a part of just every type of church you can even think of, every denomination you can think of, is most people in the church are in a consumeristic perspective, whether they would say that or not, whether they would think that or not, and also not even on a holistic level. Like, I’m sure that they get involved in some aspects or they…

You know, they tie there. doesn’t. The details don’t matter. But in essence, there’s this sense of what do I get out of it? Which, again, is OK on some level. But if that’s our main view of the body of Christ, we’ve missed the entire perspective that God desires for us. The purpose that Christ came to save humanity was to make a bride for him, you know, to that God was bringing a bride to him, not a not individuals, but but a whole

A whole person, a church. And I think we forget that. ⁓ There’s been so many times in our church, you probably experienced this, just so much turmoil between relationships, right? And there’s just this reminder, just remember, we’re going to spend eternity with these people. you might be able to avoid them now. ⁓ You can’t avoid them in eternity. We have all of eternity that we’re going to be walking in love with one another. That’s literally what heaven is going to be.

Gary Thomas (15:02)
Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Smith (15:13)
is the body of Christ in unison, know, worshipping God.

Gary Thomas (15:18)
I opened the chapter with a story that really inspires me. It’s a true story from the Second World Wars in 1942. They had a bunch of Czech resistance fighters that parachuted into Czechoslovakia, what was then Czechoslovakia, because Czechoslovakia had been taken over by the Nazis. And the Czech resistance wanted people to know that they have our land, but they don’t have our hearts. We’re trying to fight back. And the third in command of the Nazi regime,

General Heydrich, who was particularly atrocious man. He was the architect and the driver behind what they called the final solution, trying to wipe out Jewish people from the entire planet. Every country that Germany was in charge of, they were going after him. And so their aim was to assassinate Heydrich. And there was a scene that I’ll never forget. They got in and they had to give everybody a cyanide pill.

because they knew that, well, the Nazis were ruthless and they believed in collective responsibility. So they knew after the assassination attempt, they would try to uncover who helped these people. And if they were captured instead of dead, I mean, the Nazis had no hesitation about torture of the worst kind. So we can’t know for sure that we won’t give up information and the whole resistance movement will be threatened.

Aaron Smith (16:39)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (16:48)
So I gave up the cyanide pills. If you know you’re going to be captured, you cannot be captured. You’ve got to take the cyanide pill. But the line that struck me was this. Our job isn’t to get away safely. Our job is to kill hydric. And I asked the question, do we think the Church of God, the spiritual battle that we are in is as worthy of sacrifice as the Czech resistors thought their freedom was? Will we

give to our heavenly king what they were willing to give to their deposed government. Our job isn’t to get away safely. Our job is to kill hydric. So if we die, we die. And in fact, all of them ended up being killed. They were able to kill hydric, but none of the resistors got out alive and many other people died as well who had helped them. And I’m driven. I’ve told my wife this, Erin, that on my tombstone, you know,

quote Matthew 633 more than anything. Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added into us as well. But then two lines that I used to describe Paul, it’s astonishing when you read the epistles of Paul, I work hard for the church. I’m a servant of the church. And if somebody is out there just making their own platform, you know, kind of doing what we do, books and podcasts and speaking at conferences and whatnot.

Aaron Smith (17:50)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Gary Thomas (18:12)
but their heart and their passion isn’t to build the church, then I think it’s selfish ambition. We’re called to give our lives over to the church. That’s what Paul did. And if we want to be like Paul, we’ve got to be faithful. And if we want to love Jesus, we’ve got to love his bride. Like he said, we might as well learn to love him now because we’re to have to live with him in eternity.

Aaron Smith (18:17)
that I did.

Jesus’s direct response to the two disciples, like, who’s the greatest? Which one of us? And he’s like, you want to be the greatest? You have got to be the servant of all. we don’t realize that. We think we’re here to be served. That’s what, you know, our hearts are. That’s what our flesh desires is. Serve me. Give me what I want. When that happens, there is no kingdom being built other than our own. And our kingdom is fragile. ⁓

Gary Thomas (18:44)
Yes.

Aaron Smith (19:03)
By the way, I love your writing style because you are you’ve always been really good at bringing in amazing stories to illustrate your points Even that one right there was I was drawn in I was like, what’s the rest? What how does this keep going? ⁓ so ⁓ You’re absolutely right this heart of and it’s not just serving the church the church is a means to how we Become more like Christ Christ came. He’s like I came not to be served but to serve

He laid his life down. He put the garment around his waist and washed his disciples feet and he said, you see what I’m doing, follow my example, do this for each other. The serving the church is loving Christ. It’s being like Christ. It’s loving his bride because we’re a part of it. We are the building blocks of the church. It’s the exact message that I’m always trying to encourage our listeners with is that their marriage, their life, their home, their resources are not theirs. They’re stewards of them.

They’re stewarding something God has blessed them with. it all boils down to, don’t know exactly where this lie came from. But it’s this idea that other people are in ministry, I’m not. Other people are doing the work of God, I’m not. I just have this normal nine to five. I’m just a stay at home mom. I just have this, you know, I’m a banker. And not realizing, like, wait, no.

You are in the body of Christ, therefore you are in ministry. You are a minister of the gospel. You are a minister of reconciliation. We need to like get that into people’s hearts that it’s not someone else’s job. It’s our job, us collectively as a church. And that’s one of the things that you are hitting on in this lie of having apathy toward the church is that it’s exactly that. It’s a lie. Like the church is actually

is the purpose. It’s the thing that we’re doing.

Gary Thomas (20:58)
And I know it’s your generation, Aaron, that often has the biggest problem with the church. So I’m glad to hear you saying this. But I said to someone that was younger, younger than you, you know, they’re railing off this issue about the church. And she was entirely correct. Everything she said was true. So why should I even go? And I just said, then help us fix it. Be the generation that leaves the church better than you found it.

Aaron Smith (21:22)
Yeah, bit of a switch, yeah.

Gary Thomas (21:27)
This is a call for you to get involved. And I know saying that, she might be rejected here or there. They might say not interested. Find the place where you are invited. Find the place where you are welcome and get busy. ⁓ Those two words really describe Paul. I am a servant of the church. I work hard for the church. I don’t think we’ll understand God. I don’t think we can love Jesus if we don’t love his church. What did Jesus say to Peter when he reinstate him?

Aaron Smith (21:47)
Mm-mm.

Gary Thomas (21:56)
Do you love me? Yeah. Feed my sheep. If we’re not feeding Jesus’s sheep, we’re not loving on him.

Aaron Smith (21:57)
Feed my sheep.

Well, John, and I think it’s in first John, he says, if you do not love your brother, you’re, and you say you love Christ, you’re a liar. Like you don’t love Christ. Like you, you can’t, you can’t have one without the other. You can’t have Christ without his body. a perfect example of this for my listeners to think about is like, well, what do you mean? ⁓ you go to church, a new church, let’s say you go to a new church and you’re like, and you leave and you’re like, man, no one came up and said hi to me. What’s interesting about that is like that is a.

Gary Thomas (22:09)
Yeah, you’re lying. ⁓

Aaron Smith (22:33)
True state of a church, right? Maybe no one recognized you. Everyone thought you were no one knew you were new because the church is so large or whatever. But you can go say hi to people. You can go introduce yourself. You can say, I’m going to do what I desire someone to do. What’s the golden rule is treat others as you’d like to be treated. Hey, my name’s so and so I’m new here. I’d love to get connected. What’s your name? How’s that? What do you love about the church? What do you know?

Gary Thomas (22:44)
Yes, yes.

Aaron Smith (22:59)
But when we have that mentality of like, one came and served me, no one came and this is a bad church. Like, well, maybe you just didn’t get to see, maybe you just were no one noticed. Maybe they were serving someone else at the time. So having these little mind shifts, which is exactly what your whole book is about is the reborn life, the being renewed, being transformed by the renewing of our minds as the scriptures tell us. That’s the intent and focus of your entire book.

is getting the spiritual discipline of identifying the lie, replacing it the truth. Identifying the lie, replacing it with the truth. I just love that.

Gary Thomas (23:38)
wanted to call the book

the art of unlearning. That was my title and I guess they thought it was too negative. So, but that’s what it is for me. I’ve been trying to hold. I need to unlearn that. I’ve picked it up some from the world, some from the church lies that I think just held me back and the problem with each one of these lies. Well, Jesus said I’m the way the truth and the life he called Satan the father of lies.

Aaron Smith (23:42)
⁓ interesting.

truth.

Gary Thomas (24:05)
And I think lies have a malicious purpose. Satan gets us to think God is supposed to act this way. Life is supposed to be this way, even though God never said that. So then when it doesn’t happen and the lie doesn’t come true, it makes us bitter toward God and angry toward God instead of running toward God. you know, believing lies doesn’t sound like it’s that serious. I’ve just seen people believing lies that lose power in their life. They lose joy in their life.

They lose peace in their life, ultimately lose intimacy with God where they become, you know, just apathetic toward him at best.

Aaron Smith (24:44)
There’s a just a further deep in the importance of what you’re saying. I believe it’s in Hebrews. There’s a warning that the I believe it’s Paul but the author gives of do not be deceived as they did in the rebellion in the wilderness. And you know so many thousands fell in one day. there’s over and over again in the New Testament is a warning against being deceived because deception causes us to believe.

Gary Thomas (24:58)
Yes.

Aaron Smith (25:13)
When we fall into deception, our belief, which is the foundation of our faith, is on believing in something, believing in the truth, believing in Christ as our Savior and Lord. If that belief system on the Savior can be chipped away at with lies, that’s the most danger a believer can be in is when we believe lies. And that is the state of every believer. The reason all of the things in New Testament exist is because it’s got to dismantle the lies.

that are prevalent in us and around us and by the enemy. ⁓ And it matters more than we give it credit for, I believe. ⁓ So you talk about ⁓ the life we were reborn to live, which, by the way, I do actually love the title because we are reborn creatures. We are in the rebirth. are the born again, you know. And I would like you to just dig into this because this is a question I have is many believers have this.

Gary Thomas (25:59)
⁓ okay.

Aaron Smith (26:13)
I’ve been born again. love Jesus. I know His Word. I pray. I follow Him. I don’t feel new. I don’t feel like I see other people like, wow, they had such a transformation, such a crazy night and day transformation, right? And I’ve been a believer now for since I was 17 and a half and I’m 41. So I don’t know many years that is, but over 20 years.

And there’s times in my life, like I felt that way at one time and there’s times I’m like, man, I don’t feel very transformed, reborn, new. Why is that? Is it because of this life and the weights and the burdens and the lies and like…

Gary Thomas (27:01)
Well, I mentioned liking to work at a church and being a pastor. ⁓ And this is difficult for a book writer and conference speaker because we have to work in generalizations. And I like it at church as I get together with someone and find out what it is that’s keeping them from experiencing that life. And it’s often very different. But I think there are two things in particular that I would mention. They’re both, usually it’s, there’s a lie that they’re thinking that is just holding them back. One is about what brings peace.

I think peace is one of the best things about being a Christian and so few people experience it. And the reason so few people experience is that we think what will give us peace, pursuing that is what will chase it away. Another thing that I think keeps people bored in their Christian life is that they’re seeking to control everything. And I’ve described in here that Christianity is more like living in a jungle than working on an assembly line. Jesus says the wind

Aaron Smith (27:52)
yeah.

Gary Thomas (28:02)
You know, the Holy Spirit is like the wind. It blows wherever it pleases. Thus will be everybody who follows Him. And, you know, we want control. We’re like Pharisees. This is when I do my quiet time. This is when I do my ministry time. This is when we have our date night. This is when we have our kids, this or that and whatnot. And in one sense, it doesn’t sound so bad. But what if God wants to blow up our schedules? If we believe that God is real, that God is supernatural,

and that God is active, we should expect that our schedules will be blown up when he brings somebody to us who maybe they need a gift of money, maybe they need a word of encouragement, maybe they need a phone call, maybe they just need somebody to listen to them. We should expect that God will bring people our way to do that. ⁓ It might feel safer working in a factory at an assembly line, because in one sense it is, but it will bore us to tears. A jungle might feel threatening.

but we were created for adventure. I think spiritual adventure is a great thing to bring husband and wife together. We’re going to get bored with each other if we don’t have spiritual adventure. I spiritual adventure is a great way to keep our kids. One of the worst things we could do as Christians is make them think that Christianity is about not doing more things than other people don’t do. And so instead of worrying about them, getting involved in the deeds of darkness, what if we send them off saying, Hey, let’s pray.

Aaron Smith (29:22)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (29:28)
Let’s look for God to open up our eyes and ears. How does he want to use us today? And maybe the end of the day, say, well, you know, I saw this kid sitting alone at lunch. I felt like I was called to go out and have lunch with them. Or this teammate had a really bad practice, was really feeling down. I just felt like, hey, can I pray for you? You’re doing what? But but letting our kids know that God can use them. God used younger than teenagers throughout scripture and in Christian history.

And a child who’s been used by God regularly is ruined to the world because it’s just far more fulfilling to bless than to curse, to encourage rather than to gossip, to love rather than to hate. When they feel the spirit using them, that’s what’s going to capture them for the kingdom. And so I think a lot of marriages get bored and a lot of families get bored. But that’s because we’re trying to control things. That’s the lie we have to dismantle. And instead,

Aaron Smith (30:05)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (30:27)
realize that life is about living in the spiritual adventure. Be like the wind. It blows where it pleases and follow the God who leads us as he will.

Aaron Smith (30:37)
Do you feel like ⁓ many leaders, because I feel like this gets played out in a global scale, a larger scale ⁓ from Christian leaders. And I feel like maybe there’s a fear of ⁓ spontaneity, a fear of disorder, a fear of in trying to encourage this mentality of, hey, this faith we have is an adventure. ⁓ Do you feel like that maybe has played a role in some of our, me, younger generation?

feeling like everything’s gotta be controlled and tidy and orderly.

Gary Thomas (31:10)
Yeah. Well, yeah, a hundred percent. And depends on the church. know, home churches can be open to this. I’ve worked mostly in mega churches, which I know some people despise and it’s difficult because you’ve got a parking lot. You’ve got a certain time. I was in a college ministry that had several hundred and that was very open to spontaneity and whatnot. But you get much bigger than that. And again, we have college students on a Friday night and you don’t have to empty the place.

Aaron Smith (31:22)
I’ve done all of Both mega turkeys, home church.

Gary Thomas (31:39)
you could be more spontaneous. So I get that. But I do think the challenge, I think it was John Wimber who said that if you took away the Holy Spirit, 90 % of what the church does today won’t change. Because if you took away the Holy Spirit from the first century church, 90 % would change. I mean, it would be a whole different experience. And I do think you’re right that we feel less dependent on what God is doing. But here’s the thing.

Aaron Smith (31:53)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Gary Thomas (32:06)
While we both believe the church is important, the church is a couple hours out of my week. This is something I want to do as I’m going to church, as I’m leaving the church, as I’m throughout the week, as I’m with my wife, as I’m with my kids, this sense of God moving as he will. And it just hits us a different way. And look, I’ll give a church example. I’m almost certain that I over-prepare for sermons.

Aaron Smith (32:15)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (32:33)
I mean, I’ll preach it to a group of people here at the church to get feedback on Thursday and rework it. And then I’m practicing Friday, Saturday, preaching on Sunday. I’ve studied, I tried to get the stories down, I tried to get the exegesis right and all of that. And it’s very likely pride. I mean, I’m not trying to brag on myself. It could be that I’m pretty insecure and I just don’t want to flop. And so I prepare.

But what I don’t prepare for, what people are surprised, they like it. Because Kurt and I spend a lot of time out in the atrium in the lobby. Kurt’s the senior pastor. Talk to people before and after the service and just being available to pray and talk. I had one where I worked really hard in the sermon. It landed. People liked it, I could tell. But this guy comes up to me and he says, Gary, man, you prayed for me nine months ago and you shared a few words. He goes, that hit me so hard I can’t even tell you. I’ve never forgotten that. He didn’t say a word about the sermon.

that I’d prepared maybe 20 hours for. You was talking about a completely spontaneous prayer where I was 100 % dependent on the Spirit. I didn’t know what to pray for. I didn’t know how to give him counsel. That just hits you in a different way because we were made for that. And so while I hope to be and try to be dependent on the Spirit as I’m preparing for a sermon and even as I’m preaching a sermon, it’s just different when God brings something up and

Aaron Smith (33:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Gary Thomas (33:58)
He’s there and he uses you and you realize he is real. He is supernatural. He is active. That’s what we crave. And I think a faith without that, Aaron will get boring because you don’t see God acting. You can read the Bible. Now, I think the spirit is essential to have the Bible interpreted, but you could read the Bible without it. Some people that don’t know God read the Bible. You can go to church without the Holy Spirit, but being used by God like this, living in the jungle,

Aaron Smith (34:18)
yeah.

Gary Thomas (34:28)
It just makes God, you sense his reality more strongly, more urgently. And it leads you, think, to a life that renews your intimacy with God.

Aaron Smith (34:34)
Absolutely.

Well, what you’re explaining is exactly what we’ve been talking about this whole time with recognizing where we like the role we have in the body of Christ. We look at the building, we look at the thing we do on Sunday mornings or whatever day you go as the whole thing. And it’s just a part of the thing. It’s it’s a important part. We’re told not to forsake the gathering of the brethren. There’s an importance to corporate worship and corporate learning.

from the Word of God and being seen in public and available as brothers and sisters in Christ. But that daily, every day is what the Church is to do. We were just in our family Bible time reading through the book of Acts.

Gary Thomas (35:26)
talk about living in the jungle.

Aaron Smith (35:29)
Oh yeah, and we’re reading the part where the church begins to be persecuted by the Jewish leaders and it says that they were spread around and as they were spread they were going and preaching the gospel. And I was explaining to the kids, I was like, do you think – and I went back and I read the great commission that Jesus gave to his disciples. He says, go therefore into all the world and make disciples, teach them to obey everything of community, baptize in the of the Father, and Holy Spirit.

Gary Thomas (35:42)
That’s exactly it.

Aaron Smith (35:57)
And he said, the church was doing amazing things. They were growing on this one place. said, were they though, obeying the great commission in a larger scale? They’re like, well, not really. And I said, this spreading and scattering that happened was a part of the process. They went about doing exactly that. So they didn’t just stop because the persecution began and the churches, the homes were being torn apart and people thrown in prison and all the crazy stuff that was happening that.

happens in countries currently, two churches, like in China and in the Middle East. But no, the gospel goes out because of individuals going out, being the body of Christ, building a church in this world for God. And if our mindset on the church is just this building this Sunday morning, this one hour, two hours, this Wednesday evening Bible study, if that’s as far as it goes,

We’ve missed the entire reason Christ came.

Gary Thomas (37:00)
And we all have to care about the work of God and the work of the church more than the paid staff, as much as the paid staff. When I took this job here in Colorado as a teaching pastor and my brother-in-law heard that the senior pastor is 20 years younger than me, he asked my wife, I wasn’t there. Why would Gary do that? He sold millions of books. He’s got this, you know, he’s been on all these shows. People know him. Why would he report to a guy 20 years younger?

Aaron Smith (37:27)
What is Gary thinking?

Gary Thomas (37:29)
than him. But he doesn’t get it. Being a senior pastor isn’t my calling and it’s not my gifting. We have 3500 people that cycle through here every weekend. Only one of them gets to be the senior pastor. But I’m called to give my all to God’s church. And I hope every member of the church feels that way. Only one person is going to be the senior pastor. But that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t matter to the rest of us. We should be just as eager. We had ⁓ a couple who because

Aaron Smith (37:41)
Mm-hmm.

Gary Thomas (37:59)
Before Kurt and I came there was a terrible church split here and it went way down from what it was from the thousands to less than a thousand. And ⁓ so a lot of ministries just kind of died on the vine. And there’s this couple there in a blended family and our church didn’t have a blended family ministry. And I was just like, we need you to be the blended family ministry. They actually know Ron Deal who writes the best stuff on blended families. What’s that?

Aaron Smith (38:04)
Mm-hmm.

I just had him on the show.

I just had him on the show. Super great.

Gary Thomas (38:27)
Yeah, he’s a great guy. I love him. Everybody always

thinks he must be divorced because that’s his ministry. They never have been. That was the most surprising thing when I found out. No, it’s just kind of the ministry that God had given him. that’s sort of the attitude. OK, I’m at a church. I’m a blended family. You don’t have a blended family ministry. We’re out of here. That’s one approach. Or God has called us here as a blended family to help reach other blended families. And we don’t have to have a pastor that drives it.

Aaron Smith (38:32)
We talked about it,

Gary Thomas (38:56)
We don’t have to have a pastor that leads it. You should let the pastoral staff know what’s going on, but have that same passion. We were made to serve the church. We need spiritual adventure. This scares us a little bit, but let’s see what happens. And I think God feels more real. He becomes more real to us when we step out like that.

Aaron Smith (39:10)
You

I was just talking to a group of pastors. I meet with them once a month for prayer and we just talk about things that are going on and encourage each other. One of the pastors was just talking about how their church is primarily older families, not 40s but like 50s, 60s, 70s, and how they have a desire to become a multi-generational church. They’re trying to like, how do we do that? I was just encouraging. was like, these older…

families, these older couples who don’t have kids anymore, who are way past that season of life, are going to have to step out of themselves and realize, how are we ministering to the younger couples around us? How are we open? How is our lives open to that? Or we’re afraid of that because that’s going to uncomfortable. Too many kids. It’ll be loud. Worship might change. It’s going to, I’m going to be distracted versus actually I have my, you know, I know this couple next door. That’s a young family. We should have them over and love on them. We should see ourselves.

as ministers to the younger families, whether they go to our church or not. And I was like, I guarantee if that took place, if that shift in their hearts took place, that they saw themselves as mentors, as father figures, as mother figures in the young family’s lives, young families would start coming. They’d be like, hey, come to church with us and then sit with us. And it would just shift the entire mentality of the congregation if they saw themselves in that way.

rather than like, let’s just change the worship so that it’s more attractive to younger families. Like that’s that. Okay. That could help maybe, but really.

Gary Thomas (40:49)
Yeah, but old people

trying to change the worship to attract the young people doesn’t have the best track record.

Aaron Smith (40:53)
Yeah, yeah.

No, it doesn’t. But that fear you’re talking about of that adventure, the unknowns or the messiness, the stickiness, because that’s really what it is. These things get sticky. We have to step outside of ourselves. We have to lay ourselves down. We have to get rid of past that lie that, you know, I just need what I want and that’s enough and be like, no, the Holy Spirit has things he cares about. And as the Bible tells us, if we’re going to walk in the spirit, we got to keep in step.

with the spirit. I always tell people we forget sometimes that the Holy Spirit is a person that has an identity and a directive and a direction. And it’s not this like power we wield. It’s a person we follow. He’s doing something. Are we being sensitive enough to look down at the ground and say, I want to put my foot where that footprint is at. I want to my foot in that footprint and be led by the Spirit. So you’re exactly right on that.

Gary Thomas (41:26)
Yes.

Aaron Smith (41:51)
⁓ I wanted to talk about something you talked about in chapter seven about sin. And I believe that the chapter, yes, a sin free life, know, demanding it right now. This is important because I’ve in my life, I think everyone at some point, every believer is like, God, why haven’t you just taken away all of my cravings, all of my sinful desires? Why haven’t you just, you know, cut this out of me?

You know, as the Bible calls it, the circumcision of Christ. Why is it still there? Why am I still tempted in these ways? And you talk about that being a lie of looking for this perfection in order to move forward.

Gary Thomas (42:33)
This was, ⁓

really one of the biggest lies that I had to wrestle with. And I couldn’t have written this 10 years ago or certainly not 20 years ago. I did my master’s thesis on sanctification. How do we become more holy? I was really striving to grow in holiness. And I think there’s a need for that and a purpose. I would love to write a book on sanctification, but the more I read widely in the classics in scripture, I realize

We’re all going to struggle not just with temptation, Aaron, but with sin. That’s just the reality. ⁓ Every child of God has been tempted. Only one has not fallen and that’s Jesus. And here’s why that’s so important to admit that we’re going to struggle. One, biblically, virtually every major character in the Bible except for Jesus has an embarrassing moment.

elapsed into sin. mean, you think Abraham likes that we’re reading about that he offered up his wife to two different men to save his skin? That’s a little bit of an embarrassing thing going. You’ve got David, who is so revered throughout scripture, and yet we know the whole story with Bathsheba and murder and other things. Peter, not only was he denying Jesus on the night Jesus was betrayed,

But later he was still a people pleaser when he wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles. so these are the things where it’s but here’s here’s why it’s important to accept it. One, so we stay connected that we don’t have this. This is I got to be careful here when when cancel culture is based on gotcha. So you’re gone. I think we’re not understanding the human condition.

Aaron Smith (44:08)
Bye,

Gary Thomas (44:32)
If there is somebody ministering that’s a present threat to somebody, if they’re predatory sexually or financially or in other ways, yeah, I think they got to be called out. That’s a different thing. But the reality is I can try to say, I’m going to reach a certain point so that you say, I wish I could be like Gary. I want to be holy like Gary or we’re all at the mercy of Jesus. Jesus is the hero. Jesus is the only hero in scripture. Our focus has to be

on him. And so I had to, I had to quote a lot of the classics in this chapter where they’re a little more honest about what we face. Even so, John Calvin, who ridiculed those who talk about super saints, he goes, ultimately, Jesus is the only super saint. Jesus is the only one who completely overcomes sin. Because when some have talked about how we don’t sin, like John Wesley, when he talked about perfection,

Aaron Smith (45:23)
Mm.

Gary Thomas (45:30)
He so reduces what sin means that he makes it almost useless as a paradigm. I think if he could go back, Wesley might try to find a different word than perfection. I get what Wesley was saying. Why should we tolerate sin? We shouldn’t want to. But rather than trying to redefine sin, well, that’s not really a necessary. Just say, look, I’m sinful. I need to be aware of it. I need to be aware of pride in this situation. I need to be aware of

wanting to be heard in that situation or appreciated in this situation, just recognizing this is what’s going on in my life and dealing with it honestly and thoughtfully, independence on God, grateful to Jesus. Because one, it makes me thankful for what Jesus did. It makes me more dependent on what Jesus did and in awe that Jesus made a way.

for somebody like me who didn’t just need rescuing, but continues to need rescuing all the time.

Aaron Smith (46:36)
That’s a ⁓ really, really good point to be made that us as believers need to be considering. I think there’s a lie in there of wanting God to remove these sinful desires because they’re there. We have a flesh that craves certain things. And in reality, it’s because I want to not have to rely on the Holy Spirit.

Can you just like, because then I can just move forward and I don’t have to think about it anymore rather than that desperation on Christ. Like I need you because I am insufficient. As you know, Paul praying three times for a thorn in his side, it doesn’t tell us what the thorn is, but Christ says, know, my grace is sufficient for you. For my strength is made perfect in your weakness. In our weakness is when Christ is strong is because we are no longer like trying to

tug on the cord, no longer trying to control the situation we surrender. No, it’s why Christ says, take up your cross. Like we have to, we have to die. And it’s, it’s, it’s why we need a savior is because we are in need of saving all the time, every day. An analogy I give to people that struggle with, specifically when I’m talking to like Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons, talking about

this sin nature of man and creation is, ⁓ I mean, God gave us a perfect analogy. The sun, the sun itself has no shadow. It will never cast a shadow. It is the shadow caster. So everything that the sunlight hits does cast a shadow. So all of creation has a shadow and yet the sun itself has no shadow. And this is our state before God. Not that we’re unredeemable, not that we can’t be made more light.

you know, become light, you know, as Christ is light. But we are a creature still that has a sin nature and we need a savior. We need a sinless, perfect man to take our place because we are not a sinless, perfect man or woman. ⁓ He’s the light, we’re not. And so we need to step into that light. We need to follow that light. ⁓ where did you end off on with this idea of

following this lie of desiring a sin-free life before we can follow Christ, before we can have that reborn nature.

Gary Thomas (49:12)
Well, I had to learn ⁓ that the book that really challenged me on this was Thomas Brooks, Precious Remedies Against Satan’s Devices. Thomas Brooks is a brilliant Puritan. I mean, he had some great stuff. And a lot of the book goes about this is what Satan’s devices are against us. And these are the remedies. ⁓ But he’s got a number of things where he says the benefits that come to us by facing in our many sins. says, one, our struggles keep us humble.

And I would say today, Aaron, that people think the worst sin has to do with sex. And I think sexual sin is very serious. But the classics in scripture are pretty much in clear agreement. The greatest sin is pride. And if I am humble, I can’t sin sexually. I’m not going to abuse somebody else for my pleasure. So pride is really the root sin that feeds what could happen with lust. So struggles keep us humble.

Our struggles make us continually dependent on God and his resources. They keep us mindful of the grace and kindness of Christ for the pardon he went on our behalf. We’ve talked about that. I like this. Our struggles against sin help us avoid becoming too affectionate toward the world at large. I might as well be vulnerable. I’m talking about sin. I’ve craved sugar my entire lifetime.

My mom loves sugar when she was pregnant with me when I was growing up. And so I can have one of those little Haagen-Dazs things that is okay. Those little Haagen-Dazs ice creams where you take three times to eat them. It’s okay. And then sometimes not always and not often, but sometimes I’ll just keep going and the thing is gone. And I just like feel like such an idiot. 1100 calories, right? In one sitting. But it kind of makes us realize this world is good. Ice cream can taste good.

Aaron Smith (50:58)
the altar.

Gary Thomas (51:08)
But then you feel sick and you feel defeated and you feel discouraged. Do I not have any more self-control like that? I, you know, I’m a glutton for that. And that leads to the other one. battles against sin make his heart sick for not being fully present with the Lord right now. And then this is important. Our struggles against sin give us compassion and empathy for others who fight temptation and occasionally fall into sin themselves. We don’t know how to have the same sense of sin.

Aaron Smith (51:35)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (51:37)
But the reason I have so much compassion for others who are facing sin is that I’m more aware of my own sin. And I realize that everybody has a different history. ⁓ There’s a counselor I used to send everybody his way in Houston. He was just fabulous. And when I would write chapters on ⁓ sexual issues or sexual abuse or whatnot, he was my go-to guy to review them. And he told me…

that when he’s working with a guy who was sexually abused as a young boy, he said, I can just about write his life story. It’s like the dominoes start falling and I let him tell me, but I know where it’s going to go. And so I have compassion that a guy that might be doing something that is repugnant, but I realize that’s where it’s headed. And I can feel compassion that he had this done to him. It’s not excusing what he’s doing now.

He’s got to get

Aaron Smith (52:33)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (52:34)
control of what is happening now, but you can do that with compassion for that. I remember reading the story of Robert Downey. Is it Robert Downey Jr., the actor who just about wrecked his career with drug abuse? You know, he was really on as a younger guy was really up there and then basically for years almost just disappeared because he was just. He was just captured by drugs. Well, then I read his story.

Aaron Smith (52:44)
Yep. Yeah.

Gary Thomas (53:02)
about how when he was like seven, his dad would have him smoke pot with him. I’ve had a seven year old son, Aaron. I know what a seven year old son wants to do to connect with his dad, to look up with his dad. And so I could say, look, he’s got all of this money. He’s got all of this fame, pretty cool job. Doesn’t have to work that hard. And he throws it away. And then I hear his story and I’m like, ⁓ okay.

Really every sin usually has a story like that and people get upset. you’re excusing the sinner. What he’s doing. I’m not excusing it. I think it’s horrific. And I think we have to be careful about guarding people from those who are still predatory or aren’t in recovery. But I do think we have to begin with compassion. And when we recognize our own sin, you know, I might not go to this place or I might not look at that. If I down a whole carton of Haagen-Dazs ice cream,

I mean, I know my personality. I know if certain things had set off a trigger where I would go if I started to walk that road.

Aaron Smith (54:07)
You mentioned pride being the number one sin and it’s exactly what Satan fell for, it’s pride. And it’s exactly what Satan tempted Aminiv with, was like, did God actually say this? So it gets them to be the ones deciding what was true or false, which is pride. It’s essentially putting ourselves in place of God. I know what’s best. I’m in charge. I am in control. And it is in God.

when it says he’s a jealous God, this is what he’s jealous over is that we would not ever put anything in place of him in our lives, even ourselves. ⁓ That’s huge. I also just want to mention that when you’re being, yeah, go ahead.

Gary Thomas (54:48)
Could I, Erin, I feel like

I’m to jump in, but this is so key because we both write a lot about marriage and family life, right? One of the reasons I have to admit that I’m a sinner and that I still deal with sin, it helps me realize that my wife still deals with sin. My kids still deal with sin. If I act like I’m above sin and above temptation and one of my family members falls, how could you? What do mean, how could you? We all do.

It’s learning how to handle our sin, how to repent, how to ask for forgiveness, how to build self-control with the power of the Holy Spirit. And so I think the reality is I would be a monster if I wasn’t aware of my sin. I’d be like one of the worst Pharisees that’s there. And so it does have implications for those we love and those in the church. I know people come to church and they’re embarrassed. said, yeah, I get that.

Aaron Smith (55:20)
Yeah.

I know. Yep, me too.

Gary Thomas (55:45)
A guy confessing me today. got it. I got it. I mean, it’s like I’m not excusing it, but they know my eyes still lights up when I see you. I still love you. I still respect you because this is a common human condition. And thankfully we have Jesus who made provision for our sin and the Holy Spirit who gives us power to overcome that sin.

Aaron Smith (55:51)
Mm-hmm.

Amen. just to what you were talking about with being careful because some people might hear like, you’re just trying to excuse certain things. And churches, general quote unquote churches have for a long time ⁓ mistaken grace and forgiveness ⁓ for appropriate responses to certain sins. You’re right. We’re all sinners. But God gives instruction in the Word of God on how

we as people deal with sin. Not that it makes us unsaved because we did this or did that. That it makes us necessary to fall under these instructions of how we deal with certain sin. Repentance being one of them. It’s how we are healed from what sin does and how sin takes hold. when it comes to certain types of sin, how we deal with believers. And instead of

doing the loving thing and dealing biblically with believers, you know, not just destroying them, not just crushing them, but with grace and with mercy and with patience. ⁓ And sometimes with serious like rebuke or, ⁓ you know, if there’s certain types of sins that there’s corporate punishment for. Now, that’s solution. That’s an earthly dealing with a spiritual thing. But spiritually, it was dealt with on the cross. And so I think we

We try and like, either we’re going to deal with all of it, you know, hypocritically, or we’re going to pretend like none of it happened and think we could be perfect. And I think both sides of the spectrum are wrong, but having a healthy humility about who we are, that we indeed need a savior. ⁓ When we sin, we need to be repentant that the Spirit of God is convicting us and not push that Spirit of God away. That we’re warned specifically, do not push the Spirit of God away. Do not. ⁓

do that because that’s literally the job of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin, righteousness, and judgment. so I love that you talk about all these. ⁓ To finish off, is ⁓ out of the—we’ve talked about three lies. What is the one of the other lies out of the twelve that you just think the marriage is listening right now really need to look at and dismantle?

Gary Thomas (58:33)
Yeah, man,

the problem is I think all 12 matter. Let me just choose one because it caught me by surprise. And that’s dismantling entitlement and remembering that we’ve been rescued. If you, if anybody had called me entitled, I would have been, oh, so offended. How can I be, how could you call me entitled? And I didn’t realize how entitled I am.

Aaron Smith (58:46)
I had this on my list of questions because it’s a serious one these days.

Gary Thomas (59:01)
and how entitled I think every one of us is, especially in the West. And the story I use there to introduce it is Dostoevsky, know, one of my favorite novelists, a brilliant writer who almost never got to write a novel. When he was in his twenties, he and a group of his friends were arrested for what was considered anti-government activities. He’d just written like a short story in an essay or something like that. And he was sentenced to the firing squad.

So he’s standing there. He can see the barrel. He’s expecting my life is over. And for whatever reason, a last minute reprieve came through and they put the guns down and he walked away. But he was sentenced to four years in a Siberian labor camp. Now we look at Siberian labor camp, it’s almost like a joke now, right? But it is, it was as harsh as you could imagine. The winters lasted like eight months.

There was not a day off. You were working 12 hours a day. It was brutal. yet, Dustieski was still able to have joy there because he thought, I should be dead. Instead, I get to be in a Siberian labor camp. And that’s the attitude of a Christian, where if we believe, I should be in hell. I don’t deserve Jesus’s grace. I don’t deserve the Holy Spirit. I don’t deserve the security that Jesus wanted me to have.

Aaron Smith (1:00:14)
Wow. Yeah.

Gary Thomas (1:00:28)
So everything that God gives me is gravy. What happens is we think that, well, God’s got to come through. He’s given me salvation, but that’s a given. So I should get this and this and this. When Paul said very clearly to Timothy, if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Aaron, how many of us really believe that? How many of us in the West think,

Aaron Smith (1:00:47)
That’s enough.

Gary Thomas (1:00:57)
God has given me everything I need. If I have food and clothing, I’m good. We want a certain kind of food at a certain number of times a day, a certain kind of clothing, a certain kind of house, a certain kind of job. And so people say, you know what? I’ve served God. I hate my job. It pays for the bills, but I should have a job that’s fulfilling. God hasn’t come through. And that’s a sense of entitlement thinking. Or a woman that said, look, I saved myself.

I haven’t dated non-Christian guys. I’ve kept myself for my husband. I’m 35. I’m not married. All these girls that broke the rules, they’re married. Some of them have kids. say, God hasn’t come through. I did what I was supposed to do. That’s entitlement thinking. Parents said, we raised our kids in the church. We trained them up in the way they should go. Two of our three kids aren’t following the Lord. God has not fallen through on his word. That’s entitlement thinking. A guy,

He didn’t put it this way, but he might as well have. ⁓ You know, I should be able to overspend and overcharge my credit cards, but eventually God should come in and rescue me because he said he’ll provide for me. You know, that’s entitlement thinking or one guy. It’s really sad. Look, I know I got a DUI, but I don’t drink that often and I don’t usually get quite that drunk. And so

Aaron Smith (1:02:09)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (1:02:21)
I know people that get drunk, drive drunk all the time. Why couldn’t God give me a break? Why did I have to get caught this time? What good is it being a Christian? That’s entitlement thinking that God owes us something. Rescue thinking is Jesus rescued us from sin, from death, from hell. When we realize what, and loneliness and the lack of joy, and when we realize what God has rescued us from, everything else is a bonus. And what that does, Aaron, it gives me more joy.

Aaron Smith (1:02:32)
Yeah.

Gary Thomas (1:02:50)
and gratitude because if I think I deserve everything that God gives me and the world thrown in and I have a great life but 20 % is withheld. You know have a 2,000 square foot home instead of a 4,000 square foot home. I drive a 10 year old car. I’m gonna feel like I’m cheated. If I don’t think I deserve anything more than what God has given me, food and clothing and salvation, every day feels like a gift. God you spoil me. You’re so kind to me. ⁓ And I just

Aaron Smith (1:03:07)
Mm-hmm.

Gary Thomas (1:03:20)
I just that that image of Dusty Esky will be with me. I think until the day I die, he thought, yes, I beer and labor camp is awful, but the alternative was worse. And so when I think about what the alternative would be for me, there’s no room in my life to complain. And especially as I get older, I just face the things that you faces you, you get older and whatnot. ⁓ It’s it’s saved.

Aaron Smith (1:03:32)
Ha ha.

Gary Thomas (1:03:49)
my intimacy with God to dismantle the lie of entitlement, even though I wouldn’t have thought I was entitled.

Aaron Smith (1:03:54)
Yeah.

I’ve heard this so many times from believers when it comes to sin, when it comes to jobs, when it comes to money, life, marriage, all of the things, and essentially saying, you know, God’s got to do something. Like, he hasn’t done enough. And at the end of the day, I think of that scripture that says, yet while we are still sinners, Christ died for us. And we have to realize, I I’m entitled.

Gary Thomas (1:04:17)
Yes. ⁓

Aaron Smith (1:04:24)
I know this. feel it. I have these same thoughts. I don’t want to make myself sound so pious. But this idea that God has to do something else. And the question is like, well, what more can he do than send his only begotten son to die for us? Like, really? Like, there’s something more as if Christ has to be crucified again and again and again. we think that

God hasn’t done enough when it’s not that he’s only not only done enough. He’s literally done everything. As Paul tells us, we’ve been given all things that pertain to life and godliness in Christ Jesus. There’s nothing lacking. And that mentality isn’t a prosperity gospel mentality. That’s a reality currently right now where we are sitting right this very moment in whatever circumstances he’s given us everything.

And it even says that you’ve been given all things to enjoy. We just tend to think as people, it’s not enough. ⁓ I deserve more. I should have this or that. And it’s like that lie in itself steals every ounce of joy and peace from us as believers. I’ve experienced it myself. I have to fight the same entitlement urges all the time. We always have to when we pray with our kids.

We just thank God for everything we have because we don’t deserve any of it. I don’t deserve this house I’m in. I don’t deserve the marriage I got. I don’t deserve the kids I got. Everything I have is way more than I could have ever asked for or imagined as the scriptures promise. Yeah, the entitlement needs to go. So that’s good lie to get rid of.

Gary Thomas (1:06:09)
The thing too

is that scripture is very honest. Scripture sets our expectations really low. When we have entitlement, we’re strangers to scripture. Here’s what the Bible says we should expect. Our sin separates us from God. So we shouldn’t feel close to God on our own. Isaiah 59 2. deserve the wrath of God. Romans 1 18. We live in a fallen world where relationships will be hard. Genesis 3 16. We should expect relationships to be hard.

Aaron Smith (1:06:25)
Mm-hmm.

Gary Thomas (1:06:40)
Our struggle against sin will be fierce and ongoing. Romans 7, 15 forward. The non-believing world will persecute us. John 15, 18. Our bodies will get sick and experience physical death. 1 Corinthians 15, 42 through 44. And Jesus, John 16, 33. In this world you will have trouble. So the Bible is pretty honest saying here’s what it means. In the classics would say,

Life is usually harder for a Christian than a non-Christian. Internally, we have joy, assurance, and peace, but the outside world can actually be harder for us than it is for non-believers. Non-believers don’t have to struggle against sin. They don’t have guilt over their sin. They can just sin, you know, without even thinking about it. If their relationships get hard, they can get the fifth divorce. They can cut this person off. They cut their parent. You know, they just go their own way. And so when we look at what the Bible

says this is what we should expect and then we look at what God offers then we’re you know we live in an astonishment it makes me a much more thankful person joyful person and a much more vigorous worshiper

Aaron Smith (1:07:52)
Amen. I pray that we would all learn to cast out our entitlements. Just destroy them. Thank you for that. Gary, I really appreciate your time. I don’t want to take too much more of it. We could probably keep talking forever on this, these topics. ⁓ Just share again, what’s the name of your book and it comes out in October, but where can they get it?

Gary Thomas (1:08:10)
Yeah, if they’re watching,

the life you were reborn to live, dismantling the 12 lies that rob your intimacy with God. It comes out in October. They can pre-order it now, anywhere.

Aaron Smith (1:08:23)
And then

we’ll put all of the links to your website and your books in our description. just pray that everyone goes picks up a copy. By the way, I love the design of the cover also ⁓ being in the publishing world. It’s very nice. I love that. So good job on that. Gary, again, I’m super honored that I got some of your time today and I just pray that everyone would go check out your book. Thank you so much for being on my show.

Gary Thomas (1:08:32)
I did too, yeah.

Thank you for all you do, Aaron.