Motherhood, Identity, & the Gospel w/ Vicki Courtney

Aaron Smith (00:10)
Vicki, welcome to the Marriage After God podcast. I’m so glad you’re here.

Vicki Courtney (00:14)
Thanks for having me.

Aaron Smith (00:15)
Yeah. So, ⁓ I’m, I love doing these podcasts. I get to meet a lot of really cool people. And, ⁓ I, after doing a ton of research on you and, skimming through your book and, ⁓ everything that you got going, it’s really encouraging. ⁓ your ministry you have to wives and mothers out there. And I just, I’m excited to talk about that. We have a lot of wives and mothers to listen to the show and I’m sure they could all use a little bit of encouragement. know how my wife needs encouragement all the time. And so this is a awesome.

Opportunity to have a conversation. I’d love to for my audience to get to know you though Why don’t you just give me some of your background? Who are you and what do you do? Yeah

Vicki Courtney (00:51)
Oh, I’ve been around for a long time. I’m sure you’re

like old enough to be my son. I am married. Let’s see, we just celebrated our 37th wedding anniversary or was it 38th? Yeah, 30. Oh gosh, 38th, I think. We have three grown children, all married, blessed with an amazing son-in-law, two amazing daughter-in-laws, and then we have 10 grandchildren.

Aaron Smith (01:05)
man, yeah.

That’s so great.

Vicki Courtney (01:20)
So

I like, I love, love just being the role of being a grandmother loved being a mom, but wow. mean, being a grandmother is like you’re a superhero. You know, I’m sure you can relate the kids come to our house and we sugar them up and spoil them rotten. And then we send them back to our children to raise, which is kind of a neat thing. loving this chapter.

Aaron Smith (01:43)
I’m super excited. I’m not there yet. I’m a few years off from that, but I’m getting close and I’m starting to feel it. So I love, I love talking to people that are in that season because I’m just 10 years from there, just about 10 years from that season. Yeah. My, my oldest is 12 turning 13 this year. So, you know, I mean, it could happen sooner, I guess, but pretty close. ⁓ I’m excited to see. ⁓

Vicki Courtney (01:55)
⁓ I don’t believe that. No way.

Well, my oldest

grandchild is 13, so we’re, yeah, I know.

Aaron Smith (02:10)
Holy, that’s so awesome.

Yeah, I’m excited. So you’re loving the grandma phase?

Vicki Courtney (02:18)
I really love it. My husband and I both, I mean, we were extremely close to our children. We feel ⁓ just so blessed that they want to hang out with us, that they, you you pray for your children’s future spouses. I’m sure you’re in that chapter of life and that’s important to you. And ⁓ it doesn’t always work out. I mean, I have friends that they prayed that they prayed that prayer and, know, that it didn’t necessarily play out as they had hoped, but

our children married, ⁓ their spouses loved the Lord. My prayer was always that whoever my kids ⁓ married, if God called them to marry, that they would love Jesus more than they love my child. And I feel like that kind of gets it all in the right order. And that prayer was answered and ⁓ they all, they just loved the Lord. They were actively involved in their churches, ⁓ raising their children.

intentionally to know and follow the Lord. So I just again, I pinch myself every day ⁓ that this is the chapter we’re in and you know, you again, you just you hope you pray and you don’t really know. But we’re kind of on the other side of this and it makes it a lot easier to enjoy when you don’t have to worry about, you know, you got a prodigal and we very well may end up

know, a grandchild that is a prodigal or whatever. But I do know that my children are faithfully following the Lord and doing their best to raise their children in the faith.

Aaron Smith (03:51)
So 38 years married. ⁓ You got 20 years easily on me. In January it will be 19 years for us. ⁓ And so that’s just an awesome legacy. What was some of the, for you and your husband over those 38 years or 20 some odd years raising your kids, ⁓ what was some of the things that you guys did to cultivate in them what you’re now reaping the blessing of, if that makes sense.

Vicki Courtney (04:18)
Wow, okay, that’s a loaded question. At the same time, you know, I should back up. I I guess I started about 10 years after my last child was born, or five or 10 years, books, and most of them are in the parenting genre. So my poor children were growing up with a mom who was writing at the time on teen culture, and you know, social media was not a thing necessarily when I first started writing about it, but it was instant messaging. You probably remember that.

Aaron Smith (04:44)
Yep,

I do.

Vicki Courtney (04:45)
You know,

all those MySpace, remember that? I mean, that seems like forever ago. And children begging their parents to, you to discover they might have a secret account. And so my poor kids had the only mom out there that actually really, that actually had a page, you know, on Facebook before you could even have one without an ⁓ EDU account. And so I was, you know, researching, doing a deep dive. ⁓

Aaron Smith (04:49)
Yeah, yep.

Yep.

Vicki Courtney (05:12)
paying attention to all those issues that were related to raising kids. so, you know, we’re not, we’re not, ⁓ I mean, a lot of what I write about, I would say, we, many things we learn the hard way. And so I always like to say, it’s not like I wrote these books from some sort of, I’m the expert. I was a soccer mom in the trenches raising my kids and, ⁓

I didn’t become a Christian until I was 21. I was agnostic prior to that and actually strongly opposed to Christianity. So I’m one of those that God just took my life and did a 180 with it and it completely changed my life. And so I think that knowing that how much it meant to me coming to Christ at 21 and the things that I had to learn the hard way along the way gave me more insight into

some of those challenges our kids would face, it also ⁓ helped me become more intentional in I want to do what I can in this short chapter where we have our children under our roof ⁓ to build that foundation of faith. ⁓ Again, no guarantees and our kids had their moments where they strayed and they had to learn some hard truths the hard way and ⁓

Aaron Smith (06:26)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (06:37)
But yeah, I think for my husband and I both, you know, in contrast was raised in a Christian home. ⁓ And so in many ways, it was kind of nice to bring both those perspectives together because it was always fresh on my mind that not everybody has that luxury and that privilege to grow up in a Christian home. for me, it was, I didn’t see it modeled and you know, I was having to figure out what does that look like to have a Christian marriage? What does that look like to

Aaron Smith (06:50)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (07:07)
raise your children in the faith. ⁓ So yeah, again, there’s no formula. I’ve written this in most of my parenting books. Wouldn’t it be nice if there was just a blueprint or a formula or just the back of your Bible. You turn back there and God gives you some really specific, okay, at this age they can have a smartphone or, I mean, we were all trying to navigate those issues and ⁓ you get some things right and you get some things wrong and.

But I think the one thing you can’t get wrong is where does your faith lie? And we were, ⁓ we tried to be honest and vulnerable along the way. I would say probably my most recognizable titles to date are Five Conversations You Must Have With Your Daughter and Five Conversations You Must Have With Your Son. And those books were written from a place of wanting to be that family where nothing was off limits to talk about. You know, that we could have

Aaron Smith (07:55)
and

Vicki Courtney (08:06)
open conversations in our home and it was a safe place to do that about some really, really hard truths. Pornography, know, with our boys and attitudes out there related to that and ⁓ just the objectification of our young women and ⁓ the challenges that we faced in all of that. And so, you know, just trying to be intentional and having those conversations and letting our kids know that ⁓ there’s nothing.

nothing off limits that we can’t talk about and work out together and you know all but for the grace of God go your father and myself and we’ve had some falls along the way and ⁓ the most important thing is that we ⁓ we you always know that it’s never too late to begin again and so think a lot of times with parenting books you know it’s this and and I’ve probably been guilty of this I know that ⁓ it can feel overwhelming for moms to read all these parenting books and then you feel like

Aaron Smith (08:52)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (09:03)
Now I have 25 more things I have to do to be a good Christian mom. So this book that I’ve written is kind of, you now I’m on the other side of it going, wow, okay, I was part of that, you know, legion of Christian authors that maybe laid some burdens on moms. But at the same time, I hope I did it in a way that was like, we’re all in this together. ⁓ My kids are certainly not perfect. Lord knows I’m not perfect. Here’s some things going on in my home right now. And it helped make it a bit more relatable.

Aaron Smith (09:07)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (09:32)
But I’d say just most importantly, those open conversations of ⁓ even talking about hard things like, you know, that ⁓ you don’t always, your faith doesn’t always feel like it’s strong. You know, there are times when you’re like, I don’t really feel God’s presence right now. Or, you know, some of those things that I think we’re afraid to talk about as Christians, and I’ve labeled it in past books, the Christian pretender game, and I’ve certainly been guilty of playing that game where

you feel the pressure, like you have to ⁓ maintain this composure that you have it all together, especially as the parents. ⁓ But once I realized that, you know, our kids actually appreciated vulnerability in the right dose, I mean, you don’t want to dump everything on them, but just being honest, honest enough to acknowledge that life is hard and

Aaron Smith (10:08)
Yeah

Vicki Courtney (10:27)
And following Christ is hard. It’s not something, it’s not a little prayer you say and then you just, you know, sit back and rest in that. It’s hard to do that. And as adults, we’re learning that as we go along the way as well.

Aaron Smith (10:41)
Well, I think, I mean, you’ve, said a lot of really awesome things that I wanted to touch on, but just this idea of being open with your kids and making it a place where they can come ask questions. That’s something that my wife and I truly desire to be. I know we fail at that and we don’t do it perfectly like you were just saying, but I want my kids to be able to come to me. And so there’s so many times that we try and be honest. And I feel like that’s been the, that’s the solution to hypocrisy is like, just humility and honesty is, this other.

Vicki Courtney (11:08)
Hmm.

Aaron Smith (11:11)
hypocrisy is, here’s what our ideal is and we’re going to pretend like that ideal is what we do, but we don’t. And then I’ve seen so many young people grow up and they fall away from the faith or they leave the church or they walk away from Christ because they say like, well, the example I saw wasn’t Christian. They said one thing, did another. So we try and say, well, we don’t have all the answers, but you can come to us and we will try and find it together. I love what you just said about

Vicki Courtney (11:19)
Right.

Yes.

Aaron Smith (11:42)
being that honesty of like, life isn’t always easy. It’s not always peachy. It’s not always perfect. And there are hard things. Something that is really hard for us to bring it to our kids is because right now it’s easy for them to have faith. It’s easy for them to believe because they’re in our home and we’ve cultivated an environment that makes it easy to believe. But I have to let my kids know, Mike, you know, one day you’re what you do believe in, what you have faith in, you’re going to be tested with. It’s going you’re going to have you might have doubts.

And you might have questions that I don’t have answers to and you might, you’re going to be challenged on them. That’s like you said, like some people have, like your kids had moments of, you know, falling away or walking in a hard season with God. But that’s those moments that we need to be preparing with them for now that it’s okay that they feel that and experience that because that’s when their faith becomes their own and solidified and strong on a foundation of Christ. So I just love that. I do have a question about that.

Vicki Courtney (12:34)
Right.

Aaron Smith (12:41)
I mean, you have kids totally in another, you know, they’re my season actually as adults. My kids are not there yet. How did you navigate with your husband? When to have certain conversations? Something that I find myself saying to my kids is like, that’s a great question. I don’t feel like you’re ready to hear the answer for it, but I will share it with you one day because of certain age ranges on certain topics. And I’m just, it’s sometimes super hard to navigate when to…

Vicki Courtney (12:47)
Yep.

Aaron Smith (13:10)
to divulge certain things in the world, if that makes sense.

Vicki Courtney (13:13)
Yeah, no, it does make sense. And I almost feel like that age keeps changing because of exposure, the exposure factor. yeah, you I mean, I recall, you know, with three kids, and not every child is the same as well, you know, so by default, the youngest child, the baby of the family is exposed to more, right? Because ⁓ they’ve got older siblings and ⁓

Aaron Smith (13:18)
For sure

Vicki Courtney (13:39)
So it was probably different for each one of them, but I think, you know, one of the things we tried to do, I wish I’d done it earlier. And again, this book is kind of my response. It’s the book that I wish had been around when I was raising my kids because it can feel very just loaded, pressure-filled for moms to get it right all the time, to not make the mistakes. And, you know, I joked earlier about wouldn’t it be nice if there’s a…

addendum in the Bible that gives us some concrete truths about how old they’re supposed to be when they get on, they get a smartphone or ⁓ you know, just various things like that date or you know, whatever it is, but the truth is I think we just, we do the best job that we can with the information we’ve been given building upon that foundation of faith, but we also ⁓ we create margin and let our kids know that you know, we might not get this right.

Aaron Smith (14:28)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (14:35)
And so I’ve written before in some of my parenting books when I finally learned that it was okay to not be okay, even as a parent, you know, to not get it all right. And then to even be able to verbalize that to each of my kids and say, okay, an example, being with a smartphone, you know, okay, we’re going to try this out on a trial basis, but I don’t know if this is the right age. I don’t know if you’re really mature enough to do this. And so as the parent, I get to come back around if this

if we discover that you’re just not ready for it and change my mind and that’s going to be okay because I think that parents feel a lot of pressure especially you guys and your generation to get it right you know whether it’s ⁓ again the rules if you will related to social media and I’m sure you and your wife are probably discovering as well if you’ve got you said your oldest is 12 different Christian parents have different rules right so that makes it even more complicated

Aaron Smith (15:16)
Yeah.

Yep.

Vicki Courtney (15:33)
when your children are coming to you and I know my oldest son and daughter-in-law they have my oldest grandchild who’s 13 and he was one of two children we were told in the sixth grade who did not have a smartphone and so I had to laugh because his father my son used to give me the hardest time about you know we’re the last ones to ever have anything and then I’m like now he’s a dad and

Aaron Smith (16:00)
and he’s getting it.

Vicki Courtney (16:02)
Yeah, they’re setting their own rules and they’re having to have these conversations with their children to explain that it’s not because we’re the bad guy. We don’t want to be the bad guy. You know, but they did a similar sort of thing, probably a much better job than my husband and I did ⁓ in talking about, okay, we’re going to give it to you on a trial basis and let’s try it this way. We’ll just ease into this, but we can also change our mind and revisit this, you know, at another time. So.

Aaron Smith (16:04)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (16:31)
Yeah, it’s tough. really, as I look back, I wish, and of course, hindsight’s always 20-20, and as a grandmother now of 10 grandkids, I ⁓ don’t envy my children for the job that they have. I pray for them a lot. ⁓ I do think it’s, every generation has had challenges. I do think it is a lot more challenging for your generation, and I feel, again, one of the reasons I wanted to write the book is I just feel such compassion.

for moms who feel that pressure and you add into all of that just the mental health equation is huge, right? So most of my parenting books were, I guess, written prior to, I had some that came out after 2011, once, case in point, my five conversations titles came out in 2006, 2008. My publisher circles back around and 10 years later, they’re like, can you update them?

⁓ I said yes and at that point I’m a grandmother. When I wrote them before I was still in the trenches like you. I my kids were still under my roof. I was trying to navigate a lot of the issues I was talking about and all the rules of the game had changed. Smartphones had become the norm in 2011. It just really changed the whole landscape of parenting. Social media entered the picture. ⁓ So even in rewriting those and updating those titles

⁓ That showed me that ⁓ it’s just you guys are just carrying a whole lot as far as parents and in a lot of ways you’re guinea pigs as parents in that respect because for every opinion that says go do this even a Christian opinion you can find 10 others that say no no no no that’s not the right way to go do this and so you have so many voices in your ear moms especially

And then as I mentioned that pressure to just get it right all the time and that that ominous sense that if you don’t then it’s going to be because you made this mistake and your kids are you know now they’re not walking with the Lord or they grow up and they become one of those sad statistics that that you alluded to at the nuns or the duns that we’re seeing that ⁓ many of them grew up in Christian homes sadly.

Aaron Smith (18:56)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (18:56)
And for whatever reason, they just said, yeah, I don’t know. I saw the hypocrisy or it’s just not for me. So I think we feel a lot of that pressure. But again, backing up to like those conversations, making sure your home is a safe place for all of that. But also just in looking back on it all, ⁓ I’ve always felt like I want to be a cheerleader, especially now in my empty nest years to those moms.

In writing this book, I mentioned earlier, this is the book I wish had been around somebody to come along and say, guess what, Vicki, you don’t have to sign your kids up for all that stuff. You know, they’re going to be okay if you don’t. And so in this book, I talk about a lot of those good mother pressures that we feel ⁓ not just in the culture, but I feel like sometimes we feel them even in the church that, you know, this is the big long list.

Aaron Smith (19:30)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (19:55)
And you have to fulfill as many of these as possible to raise these godly children that then go on to follow the Lord and raise their own godly children. And so a lot of that was just kind of, you know, really looking back on those years and remembering the intense pressure that I felt. And I know a lot of my Christian mom friends felt at the same time. So, yeah, it kind of came from that place of

Aaron Smith (20:05)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (20:24)
compassion and empathy.

Aaron Smith (20:26)
Well, and it’s something that we all need, not just mothers. I love that we’re going to be talking to mothers because I think they need a lot of it. And what you’re talking about with social media, something that I’m constantly thinking about is that in the Garden of Eden, there was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There’s the tree of knowledge. And it’s the one tree that Adam and Eve were not to eat of. God said, just you can eat of every other tree, just don’t eat of this one. And what happened when they ate of it?

was that they knew they had knowledge now of good and evil just like god said it was you know what it was but They realized they were naked They saw their their inadequacy. They saw their weakness. They saw their nakedness and I feel like that’s exactly what We live in the day of of knowledge of good and evil ⁓ And and also redefining of good and evil and we see that on social media So much we have we have more

Books like you’re talking about, right? have more knowledge, we have more podcasts, we have more influencers, have more, we have the most information of any generation ever and it’s getting more every day. With AI, it’s just exponentially growing and what’s happening is with all this knowledge, more and more like what you’re talking about, that shame of inadequacy, more and more that shame and weight of not good enough is what we get from it.

Vicki Courtney (21:33)
Yes.

Aaron Smith (21:52)
We don’t get elevated. We’re like, look, look. I’ve made it. Because then you look and you’re like, that thing that I just was doing that made me feel like I made it. Now everyone’s talking about how that’s not the thing.

Vicki Courtney (22:01)
Yeah, right. Yep. No, you’re

exactly right. I share in one chapter of the book just talking about on that just in in the along the lines of social media and the things when I was thinking about how ⁓ how’s motherhood today different for my daughters at daughter and daughter-in-law’s that it is than it was when I was raising kids. I mean, I can’t imagine if I had the pressure of getting on social media.

and seeing every day in my news feed all of these mom influencers who seemingly have their lives together. have a half dozen or more children and they live on a farm and they’re homesteading and they’re making sourdough and they’re sewing their children’s own clothes. That’s great if they can pull it off. What saddens me is that it becomes sort of this expectation that like that looks like now that is the right way. That’s the way I should go.

So I’m hearing from a lot of moms in my daughter and daughter-in-law’s generation who feel that pressure. And as you mentioned, you know, there’s strong opinions related to, you know, homeschooling versus public school versus breastfeeding versus bottle feeding versus gentle parenting versus intensive parenting versus, I mean, you could just, the list goes on and on and, know, again, there’s a lot of strong opinions and I, I’ve been that

that person before who’s had those strong opinions. I’ve confessed in a past book that I’m a recovering legalist of sorts. And so I think for a lot of us, we’re comfortable, we’re more comfortable in black and white. like to think that, ⁓ okay, this is the right way. I’m on track. Maybe even a job review, if you imagine, know, the Lord giving you a job review and different intervals. And he’s like, okay, for the most part, you score a B here and a…

A minus here and a C plus there, but room for improvement. You get some tangible sort of suggestions, but yeah, it’s a lot for parents to carry today.

Aaron Smith (24:11)
I feel like a lot of the weight, you mentioned in your book the difference between ⁓ sin and performance. Like, I messed up because I didn’t do this and this. I didn’t make sourdough this week. I’m not homesteading. And we equate that to failing versus, wait, I’ve actually messed up. I’ve actually sinned. And I’m going to check that. And I’m going to address that. Because like what you’re talking about,

Vicki Courtney (24:22)
Yes.

Aaron Smith (24:40)
Feeling like God has this spreadsheet of what does our life look like and the things we do. And we know that the Bible says that we’re going to be judged for our actions. But for the believer, we’re going to be judged according to our faith in Christ. So our actions are going to be not going to be held up against us. It’s going to be Christ’s held up against us. And that is freeing in the most, the greatest sense of the word, freedom, is that truth.

Vicki Courtney (25:09)
Yes.

Aaron Smith (25:10)
And so many of what you’re talking about with social media and just media in general is looking at what’s the quote unquote, or what our life should look like versus what does God want my life to look like? How can I just come to my heavenly father and say, where I’m at with what I have, how do you want me to walk? Instead of comparing our life to other people’s lives, there’s actually a

I’m gonna look it up real quick while you respond to what I just said, if you would like to. There’s a verse about not comparing.

Vicki Courtney (25:45)
I’m I shared it in my comparison chapter where, and that was, yeah, while you’re looking that up, mean, that was something that was also very freeing for me. I wish I had employed this more when I was a mother, but just this idea of it’s okay to be able to say that is good for her or that is good for that family, but it’s not necessarily good for me or it’s not necessarily good for my family. And just because, and that I’m talking about within the church, the family of believers that we are.

that sometimes we get this idea that things need to be black and white and we get uncomfortable if like we have a, let’s say for example, a parenting philosophy and we get pushback on it. It’s not sinful. It’s something that God has said, you know, your husband, wife come together and this is the way we’re going to do things. I mean, you’re going to have pushback and whether it’s friends that do things differently or somebody that shouts out on social media, this is the right way and that’s the wrong way. ⁓

The important thing that you were alluding to is just that you’re seeking to follow Christ and that doesn’t mean it looks the same way for each one of us. And I wish I’d had more of that freedom to say, well, that’s good for her, but it’s not good for me. Or this is good for me, but it might not be good for her. And not be so judgmental in that way. Not make it a competition by comparing all the time and…

imagining that there is only one right way and one wrong way. And some things are obviously very black and white in scripture, Jesus being the only way to God, things like that, obviously. But there’s so much out there that is left that’s in the gray. And I was just looking at parenting in general. There’s not a lot of verses that speak directly to parenting in the Bible. But there are lot of verses, exactly. But there are a lot of verses that talk about loving God, loving our neighbors, ourself.

Aaron Smith (27:20)
yeah.

Very few actually.

Vicki Courtney (27:43)
you know, the Beatitudes, the Fruits of the Spirit, mean, ⁓ how to respond in times of temptation. mean, you could go on money. I mean, there’s more verses about money than certainly about parenting. So, ⁓ you know, that’s, think the culture is so hyper-focused on this role of mom and dad. And that’s another thing I’m very passionate about is, you know,

the marriage should always come before the children. And I think my generation really messed that up. My husband and I probably would have been that couple that put our children before ourselves, but we ended up in a counselor’s office about six or seven years into our marriage with three young children, five and under. And a counselor very wisely recommended that we ⁓ start going out once a week on making a date night, even if it’s just

You don’t have a budget, do something that doesn’t cost money, know, throw a blanket in the backyard and have a picnic, whatever you need to do. ⁓ But he told us, don’t talk about your children. And I want to tell you, that is hard, for that was a real test for us to be able to go out on these days.

Aaron Smith (28:55)
Yeah, especially when it’s like every

day, all day, you’re a mom and a dad, you know?

Vicki Courtney (29:00)
Right, right.

And then to go out and then have to remember, okay, wait, what were the things that we had in common before? What are the things I really like about this guy? This is why I married him and vice versa. And to have to come back together in those common denominators and realize that you have a marriage, you’re husband and wife before your mom and dad. And you’re actually, it’s, you know, God willing, ⁓

you are going to be husband and wife longer than your parents and then you are parents. And so ⁓ we’re in that chapter now and my husband is my absolute very best friend. We both are so grateful for just the candid advice given to us by that Christian counselor so many years ago because it really did help us readjust our thinking and related to ⁓

Aaron Smith (29:49)
.

Vicki Courtney (29:52)
just the order of events and you know, God first, I love the title of your whole podcast kind of leads to that, right? So, but I think, know, absolutely love that. When I got the invitation, I was like, yes, a thousand yeses because you don’t see that much. And ⁓ I’ve discovered recently that like my generation of empty nesters is the second fastest divorce category out there now. And sadly, and it’s not much different for the Christian couples our age.

Aaron Smith (29:58)
That’s the point of where we started this quarter, yeah.

Vicki Courtney (30:21)
You know, and so there’s a danger in pouring everything into your parenting ⁓ and neglecting your marriage, putting it on a back burner, you know, and thinking, well, there’ll come a day when I have more time to spend with my spouse. But right now, you know, we’ve got to take care of these little ones. And so it’s easier said than done. One of those things we learned the hard way, but we’re so grateful because now we’re in that chapter.

And we are experiencing firsthand the benefits of the empty nest years and all of that. And it saddens me too to hear mainly I think women in my generation talk down on those empty nest years. That may be my next book, seriously. I mean, you hear them, they just dread it and fear and dreading and ⁓ young mothers. If you’re listening, I apologize to you for my generation.

saying things to you all the time like, these are the best years, enjoy it while you can. And it’s never the same. That’s a lie from the enemy. If you invest ⁓ your time and attention into building that foundation, you know, in your marriage, then you are going to be just fine. It’s gonna sure it’s going to be sad. New normals are challenging, right? They’re always challenging. And there’s going to be those moments where you’re, wow, we really miss that. But I’m going to tell you like we

Aaron Smith (31:36)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (31:43)
There’s not a time where my husband and look at each other and go, I just wish we could go back and pair our children again. We are glad to be in this chapter. We feel like this is the reward for all of our hard work. But I’d probably feel differently, honestly, if we hadn’t invested in our marriage. And that’s what I think we see going on with a lot of these couples.

Aaron Smith (32:00)
Yeah.

Real

quick, want to that verse I was looking for, it’s 2 Corinthians 10-12. It says, that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves, but when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another there without understanding. It’s something I think often as Christians, we fall into that same trap. We compare ourselves among ourselves rather than comparing ourselves to scripture. Like what does the Word of God say about us? So I just want to make sure I follow up with that.

Vicki Courtney (32:22)
this.

I

love that that’s perfect.

Aaron Smith (32:35)
But what you’re saying about focusing on your marriage, ⁓ I would even take it a step back. The Bible makes it very clear in that order of like our relationship with Christ, then our relationship with our spouse, then our relationship with our kids, then our relationship with everyone. But all of it is around how might it relate to another person. The majority of the commands out of the Ten Commandments, ⁓ six out of the ten are interpersonal relationship.

Vicki Courtney (32:55)
Yes.

Aaron Smith (33:04)
Do I relate to one another in the world, other people? So it makes perfect sense that the environment that God designed for children to flourish the best is in a marriage where husband and wife both love each other and love God. That’s the environment. when we focus, like you said, when we focus on the kids only, we’ve actually changed the environment to a kid-centric, child-centric rather than a spouse-centric or Christ-centric even.

Vicki Courtney (33:29)
That’s right.

Aaron Smith (33:34)
⁓ and it’s not the right environment. And like you said, your generation, my parents, I wouldn’t say we’re necessarily like that. but in some sense were, and it, it isn’t the healthiest place. And like you said, your generation being the largest one currently of divorce after the children leave the home. And I’ve heard it so many times, like, well, we stayed together for the kids, ⁓ rather than we stay together because we love each other and our kids are the fruit.

Vicki Courtney (33:37)
That’s right.

Right, we’re best

friends.

Aaron Smith (34:03)
Yeah,

our kids are the fruit of our love and we, you know, raise them together to know the Lord. Um, that’s something I try and do to help cultivate that. we, my wife and I, we try and have as much as possible. We used to have them weekly that over the last couple of years, heavy lifting with the kids. Not, not as consistent as we like, but I’m trying to get back to that. Um, I’m hearing a knock. I don’t know if that’s on your end. Can you hear that? No. Okay.

Oh, it’s gone. Perfect. Something that I’ve tried and do with my wife is to, we like to dream about not that we’re wanting the kids to be out of the home, but excited about what it’ll be like in that phase. Being grandparents, just us, what kinds of things will we do? Like, oh, let’s get a trailer and travel around to see our kids if they’re living in other places.

Vicki Courtney (34:46)
You should. Yes.

We just

did that, Erin. We just bought a little Airstream. We’re those people. And then we really annoyed our children by naming it YOLO, which they were so embarrassed. They’re like, please don’t do that. So yeah, we’re going to get assigned for it. But no, that is so healthy to do that. And I’m glad you mentioned it because it’s just that whole idea of dreaming about it. And ⁓ I share that in the book, that you should have an empty nest perspective for moms.

Aaron Smith (34:58)
There you go. Yeah, you have a neighbor.

Vicki Courtney (35:24)
you know, that our culture tells us in this very kid-centric culture, and we hear that a lot within the church, that that’s your highest priority. the whole, you know, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve read the chapter where I talk about my wake-up call. I I actually pulled a book off my bookshelf one day and read where, you know, in the introduction, the author’s saying that motherhood is your absolute highest calling, and just full disclosure, it was a book I’d written.

back 2004. said that. And then I realized, there’s really not any scripture verses to back that up. That is the absolute highest calling. And I believe motherhood is a high calling. And it’s a calling for some women and not other women. But my wake up call ⁓ in really getting that the priorities straight came when my daughter was married and they began to, they were going to start trying to have a family and

After a couple years of infertility, she disclosed that that was her struggle and three tears shared with me. Well, I found myself trying to comfort her. was actually her older brother. They had just found out they were expecting their second child. And when she found that out, she just collapsed in my arms and feeling that grief of what she wanted for her and her husband. ⁓

Aaron Smith (36:41)
Yeah, brief.

Vicki Courtney (36:49)
you know, happiness for them but sadness for herself, ⁓ in trying to just reconcile that, you know, will I be a mother? And she shared with me, we’ve always told me, Mom, that marriage and motherhood are, you know, part of my purpose in this life. And that’s when I really had to start rethinking. And you hit the nail on the head just a minute ago and you’re talking about our relationship with Christ has to be our primary focus, our ultimate

value purpose worth is found in who we are in Jesus Christ. for women, it’s been a little bit or a lot confusing over the years because I do think that there has been an unhealthy sort of emphasis, and I’ve played a part in this myself and things that I’ve written in the past and such, ⁓ just that our value is tethered, if you will, to marriage and motherhood. And there are a lot of women that have been hurt in the wake of all of that.

Aaron Smith (37:20)
Mm-hmm.

Vicki Courtney (37:48)
single women who desired to get married but just never opportunity did not present itself or ⁓ women like my daughter who struggled with infertility now, praise God, my daughter and her husband have three children, but it could have been that they didn’t have any children. And so it really caused me to kind of rethink this whole, I think, you we all would say with our mouths, we know it to be true that Jesus Christ is our ultimate ⁓ identity, that we find it in him.

But it’s hard to practice that when you’re in the thick of it and hearing all the time, as many of us as Christian women are, that no, your ultimate purpose is your role as a wife and a mother. Our identity as being a child of God comes first and foremost in all of that. so that’s something that I’ve been unlearning and learning for the first time as I’ve…

unpack the scriptures and had more time to do that, more margin to do that, and rethinking some of this, especially in witnessing women like my daughter who were hurt along the way with those attitudes.

Aaron Smith (38:56)
Well, it reminds me of that scripture that says we tear down every stronghold and every high thought that raises itself up against the knowledge of Christ. This idea that we sometimes, maybe unintentionally, we just adopt an idea and we elevate an idea above the knowledge of Christ. This idea of, you need to be a mom and you need to have kids and you need to have this many kids and you need to have, and that’s your highest calling, like you were saying.

We do it in many ways, singleness. ⁓ There was a church I was a part of and we really emphasized marriage and families, which I think is a good thing. God definitely loves marriage and families. He invented it. was his idea. The first institution he created was marriage and family. it’s the first command. One of the first commands he gave to us, be fruitful, multiply. So it’s not wrong to ⁓ emphasize that, but it is wrong to ⁓ idolize it. And you talk about that in your book.

Um, you know, so a young man that desired to be married and, hasn’t found a spouse yet and us constantly encouraging him to look here and look there and him feeling less than because he’s not a husband yet. Like he’s not fulfilling his highest calling. And, um, I felt that conviction one day, just like you did. And I just, I went for a walk with him. just, I apologize to him for not, I didn’t apologize for encouraging him in his journey because he desired to be a husband, desired a wife, but I apologize for not.

at the same time encouraging him and reminding him of the good season that God has a man as a single man and highlighting that where God has him is okay and it’s not less than and it’s a good thing and it’s okay. And I think the same thing can happen that if, you know, if there’s a woman who is infertile or has struggling having a baby or a husband who is infertile, that also happens that they’re not less than.

And they need to be encouraged in where God has them and reminded of the truth about who they are and not made to feel already or feel more horrible than they already do because of the desire that they have that can’t be fulfilled. I think that’s a really encouraging thing that you do in your book is to ⁓ point that out. Not that motherhood is not a high calling because it absolutely is, but it’s not the high calling. know, daughter of

Christ, daughter of God is the highest calling. You are his daughter. You are his son.

Vicki Courtney (41:24)
And I

love how you said, Erin, and that’s phrase I used is that feeling that your friend had of being less than. And none of us should ever be made to feel less than when we know that our identity is found in Christ, ⁓ that God forbid had I lived in this world and marriage and motherhood had not been a part of my script, God’s script for my life, that I could have just as much

Aaron Smith (41:33)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Vicki Courtney (41:52)
fulfillment and happiness because it’s found in Christ in Christ alone. And so it’s a true test, I think, for all of us to imagine, you know, could I be happy without those things? Could I be satisfied and fulfilled? And for me, that, you know, in that moment where my daughter collapsed in my arms and said, well, mom, you said, you know, and I was trying to comfort her in that moment with, you know, well, you don’t have to have children to have. And she said, but you always said, and that’s when I realized

wow, know, that, and that has been, I think, more of my generation and the generation that came before us that just really emphasized that whole, I call it the fairy tale mindset, you know, that happiness, that happily ever after, we’re all really after that, right? But yet ⁓ we were told so often that it wasn’t possible unless, you know, you married and you had children, those little royal subjects running around in your castle and all of that. And so I feel like that’s,

I hope the encouragement that I want to leave with moms is that, and I say in that chapter that, you know, just knowing that you are more than a mom, ⁓ that’s not your ultimate identity. It’s part of, you know, I mean, even your calling when you think about that or your purpose, I should say your purpose can be found. Second Corinthians chapter five talks about we’ve been given the ministry of reconciliation. I mean, how powerful is that as ambassadors for Jesus Christ? And as part of that,

ministry that God’s given each of us, regardless of whether we have children or whether we’re married or not, ⁓ that we’re called as ministers. And so if you’re a mother, it’s really getting it in the right order that you’re a minister first. And then if God gives you children, you’re called to have this ministry to your children, a minister to them, of course, first and foremost, your husband, your children. ⁓ And so really, I ask the hard question.

the end of that chapter, like do you see yourself as more of a mother or a minister? And it was really convicting for me, you know, to think about how would I have answered that when I was in the thick of raising my kids? I would have probably, and I was actually in the ministry, Erin. So it was like, but I would have said, you know, if you said, tell me about yourself, you know, and you gave someone 10 seconds to do that. Most women with children, most of us who are mothers, it’s gonna pop up.

well, I have three kids. That’s what I told you when you used to tell me a little bit. I did it then, you know? And so our tendency is to kind of, and again, nothing wrong with that. I mean, being a mother has been one of the most joyful ⁓ callings of my life and ⁓ revealing to a lot of the sin in my life and the things that I need to improve on. Children will do that to you. Yes, Barry.

Aaron Smith (44:39)
Very sanctifying for sure. Yeah, marriage

and kids have been, yeah, the most sanctifying thing in my life. And it will continue to be that way.

Vicki Courtney (44:48)
Yes, hang into that.

It will, yes. And someday your kids will be older and they will laugh about, remember when you said this or that and it’ll still be sanctifying you.

Aaron Smith (44:55)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I think what you’re saying that the encouragement you have for moms is, I can sum it up, is it’s not that being a mom isn’t a high calling. It absolutely is. But it’s not the only calling. That you first are, like we talked about earlier, you are a Christ follower. You are a daughter of God. And that your relationship with him and your identity in Christ is the first and foremost. And that’s where we need to be for us dads as well.

You know, putting our eyes there and not on all of these other things that are trying to define us or tell us how we should be defined, which is where we find, and a big portion of your book is on rest, resting in Christ. Because all of this other stuff, like we talking about social media, it’s exhausting. I’ve felt this. I’m watching, you know, men get…

⁓ marketed to just the same as women and just differently. Like, you need to get up at five o’clock and by seven o’clock, I’ve already done your three businesses and you need to have your workout routine in here and you need to have all these things so that you’re the quote unquote perfect man, father, figure. And then go hunting and then go travel and all of the things. And I’m like, no, I just want to sit on my back porch and watch my kids run around and smile. I want to enjoy that.

Vicki Courtney (46:15)
Yes.

Right? And that be okay.

Aaron Smith (46:26)
Yeah, and the things that I already have on my plate, just the normal, like my job, my kids, my wife, my church, know, just those things alone, there’s infinite levels of weight already. And I don’t need more weight added to my life. I want the Lord to remove the weight and lift that up and give me his rest. I remember a while ago having a conversation with my wife.

We just had our sixth baby 10 months ago and, ⁓ know, every, every baby, it’s a, it’s a heavy lifting season, just having a newborn and just, she’ll, she’ll feel like she, she can’t do everything. And I, and have to remind her, like, you can’t, that’s okay. She’s like, well, there’s laundry over. I’m like, that’s okay. We have six kids. Like, of course there’s going to be laundry everywhere. That is okay. Like I’m not, I’m, I actually.

Vicki Courtney (47:18)
Yeah. They can wear the same outfit three days in a row. They’re going to be fine.

Aaron Smith (47:24)
I actually have like, I’m like, let them, they should be wearing their clothes all week. That’s what I say. You know? And then our dryer goes out. And so it’s like, cool. Now we gotta go. Anyways, my encouragement to her is, first of all, father’s listening, husband’s listening. One of the best encouragements you can give to your wife just consistently is reminding them that it’s okay that they can’t do everything. Reminding them that you don’t expect them to do everything. And I don’t. I don’t expect my wife to fulfill everything.

Vicki Courtney (47:29)
If you have six kids, I’d say two eggs, Erin.

Aaron Smith (47:54)
and do everything and I remind her often, as you would probably love to hear as well, that it’s okay that this didn’t get done or that didn’t get done and you can’t get to this. That’s, and how can I help you in this area? What’s one thing I can take off your plate? And ⁓ there’s just, there’s two, there’s so much weight already on all of our shoulders. Like, what does the word say? says like, you know, tomorrow has enough worries for itself or no today has enough for itself for you to not worry about tomorrow. Like we have enough already on our shoulders.

Vicki Courtney (48:17)
Right. Yes.

Aaron Smith (48:22)
And so that’s what I love that you are encouraging. One of the last things I want to touch on, which perfectly transitions from when I was just talking about all of the weight, ⁓ you emphasize simple living. Like it’s okay to simplify and to pair down. Would you just give some encouragement on this idea of decluttering or being able to have less?

Vicki Courtney (48:44)
Oh,

I will. But let me be sure and say that I was horrible at that in while I was raising my kids. And I share in that chapter wasn’t until packing up several years ago to move out of the home where we raised our children for 30 something years and then to. Right. Yeah, and I was not the big spring cleaner. So, yeah.

Aaron Smith (49:04)
That was easy.

Vicki Courtney (49:11)
And that’s when I realized that it’s just all the stuff and like I share, you know, going through the boxes of the kids things and the participation trophies and the trophies that were even the big deal trophies that at one point sat on their bookshelves and now they’re in a closet shelf and gathering dust and all the competitive cheer jackets and I’m like, how many letter jackets do you need? And football and all the sports that my boys played and ⁓ then the toys, all the toys and the clutter and the clothes and

you know, and that I’m guilty of having my own category of clutter as well. And ⁓ it really was just so convicting to me that all those things, and you can’t even put a time amount on how much time you spent maintaining it or shopping for the perfect, whatever it is you’re about to buy your child. You’re get a plate, you know, a swing set. know, well, there’s, get on Amazon and there’s gonna be,

Aaron Smith (49:59)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (50:07)
It’s not like my generation where with my kids you just go down the road to the hardware store or wherever they are and you buy one. There’s only three to choose from. I nowadays you guys have hundreds, thousands of choices. And I think about the time we invest on all these choices and all the stuff and the clutter. And then at end of the day, you know, here it is. We’re packing up. You’re giving it away. Your kids have outgrown it. The video gaming systems, those killed me because the cartridges alone were, you know.

Aaron Smith (50:18)
Amazon. Yeah, we can do whatever.

Vicki Courtney (50:38)
preaching in the choir here probably, know, 50 bucks a pop or more now and yeah and so you then you just see them all sitting in a box and

Aaron Smith (50:40)
They are, yeah.

We speaking of games, have ⁓ the only game system we have is a Nintendo Switch and the kids, there was a season that the kids wanted to play it all the time and we’ve, we limited it so much that they all lost interest. So that’s a good thing. But we had all these, all these game cards and they’re like, they are, they’re 50 bucks a piece. And we went, we went, I can’t even remember where we flew. We flew somewhere as a family and my son accidentally left them in the pocket.

Vicki Courtney (50:55)
Yes, my grandkids have.

Right.

Aaron Smith (51:15)
in airplane. All of them. He’s like, so are we going to like replace them? I’m like, no, they’re gone. They are gone. So that’s probably also why they’ve lost interest because I haven’t replaced any of the games. So yeah.

Vicki Courtney (51:23)
Yep.

Right, Yeah, no,

it is. It’s so for me decluttering. I I share that like their statistics related to cortisol, you know, going up when moms walk into their house and they see all this clutter and I wish I had been aware of just that relationship between stress and clutter. Of course, I had very little margins. So what could I have done? You know, I was learning how to

Aaron Smith (51:42)
yeah.

Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (51:55)
you what can you mentioned earlier, we have so many things that are weighty on our plate already are weighing us down. And I would back up and say, you know, one of the first things we can do when we’re decluttering our lives is to look at what is on your plate. And I’m not just talking about the physical things, but it could emotionally, physically, all of that. could be, you we’ve talked a lot about social media, but it could be, you know, ⁓ extracurricular stuff, you know, my husband and I definitely got caught up in all of that. You feel like you’re, you know,

in being a good mom or a good dad, you have to offer your kids the team experience and a little bit of everything to how else are they going to find what they’re good at. And so our lives can be cluttered in that way too. And so I wish that I had more of an awareness, the awareness that I have today. I mean, I have that awareness of now I get on social media and all the young millennial ⁓ moms are posting about, know, I dread when my parents pass away and I’ve got to.

go through their stuff. So I’m trying to be mindful of that. I don’t want to leave my kids a bunch of junk. ⁓ But I do wish that I’d had an awareness, you know, and as a parent, like to have this simpler life that we were living and to not be so caught up in, ⁓ you know, well, they have to have this or that to keep up with what their friends are getting. And that’s hard. It’s hard to be the parent that says no to things.

Aaron Smith (53:02)
Yeah.

you

Do you know what our generation is gonna be dealing with clutter wise? Digital clutter.

Vicki Courtney (53:25)
I was about to say, OK, well, not just yours, Erin. I have, embarrassingly, 110,000 pictures right now on my phone in a cloud. I don’t know what to do with them. Yeah.

Aaron Smith (53:27)
until all another.

That’s in just one, that’s one phone. I mean, how many phones have I

had over the years? And it’s like, I have, I have.

Vicki Courtney (53:38)
There you go, but I have 10 grandchildren,

so 110,000 pictures for me is not a lot, right?

Aaron Smith (53:42)
No, that’s pretty normal. But yeah, we’re way past the day of albums, you know, you know, so digital clutter. But I love the encouragement. It’s something that all of us need to be reminding each other of because there is so much unnecessary weight and burden being put on each one of us as believers. I just I love that. think it’s entitles, you know, the encouragement to like live.

Maybe it’s in Timothy. You can correct me. I’m probably wrong. just that it’s that we encourage them to live quiet lives and to work with their hands. And this idea of it’s OK that our life is simple and following God. Like, that’s OK. And there’s so much ⁓ so much draw, so much like necessity of like, hey, you’re not doing enough ever.

You’re never doing enough. like I have this podcast and it doesn’t feel like enough. And we write our books. It doesn’t feel like enough. You have your business. It doesn’t feel like enough. You have your your nine to five job and you could pay your bills, but that’s not enough. You need have so much in savings and you need to have this 401k and you need to have which these aren’t bad things. know, as Paul says, you know, all things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. We have too many things that we’re allowing them be masters over us. Tell us.

What time to give over here? Which place to be over here? What we need to be doing over here? And I just, always try and encourage people like, like it’s okay that you’re not doing what I’m doing. Like you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t do what I’m doing. I have stresses that I don’t want you to have, you know? And so I love what you’re doing. Can you give one last encouragement for the moms listening? And then share also the name of your book, cause we haven’t done that yet. Where to get it and where to feed you.

Vicki Courtney (55:26)
Right.

Sure, sure, yeah.

Well, I would say that just to encourage moms that they are more than just moms, that first and foremost, they’re a daughter of the king. To find their identity in him first and foremost, and of course, being a mother is a wonderful and joyful thing. But to really build their lives with that awareness, knowing that a day will come when they will hand their children off, you know,

They’ll fly the nest and it’ll matter at that point, the foundation that those moms had built on their purpose, their identity being centered in Jesus Christ. ⁓ But to enjoy, enjoy motherhood and to let yourself off the hook, to be perfect, to get it all right all the time, ⁓ to understand the freedom that God offers us, it’s grace to be, that it’s already settled that we are good enough.

Aaron Smith (56:15)
Yeah.

Vicki Courtney (56:33)
So you got title of the book in line with that is, Motherhood is not your highest calling, the grace of being a good enough mom.

Aaron Smith (56:42)
I love that. ⁓ When you just said ⁓ to be aware that we’re going to send our kids off, that one of the few scriptures about children is that they’re like arrows in a quiver, right? And the point of an arrow is not to stay in the quiver. You shoot it.

Vicki Courtney (56:54)
Yes, yes. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.

And it’s something to look forward to, like we talked about. It’s not something to dread. That’s the reward for your hard work.

Aaron Smith (57:04)
Yeah. Love that.

Praise God. Well, Vicki, I really appreciate that and I love what you’re doing and I just pray that all the moms get a copy of your book and find rest and peace in the truth of who they are in Christ, not how perfect they are as a mom. I don’t think, yeah, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much and God bless.

Vicki Courtney (57:21)
Well, thank you for having me. Yep.

You too. Thanks, Aaron.