From Financial Mess to Miracles – Interview with Bob & Linda Lotich

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Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Marriage After God podcast. In this episode, I get to have an awesome conversation with Bob and Linda Loick, and they’re the founders of Seed Time Money. They love the Lord and they love marriage, and most importantly, they love helping marriages figure out their finances and grow in their financial freedom, in their financial stewardship and in their giving. And so in this episode, we talk a lot about all of those things. So if you are interested in figuring out your money situation, this is the conversation for you. Please enjoy my conversation with Bob and Linda.

Hey, I’m Aaron. And I’m Jennifer.

And we’re the host of the Marriage After God podcast. Our desire is to help you cultivate a marriage that chases boldly after God’s will for your life together.

We want to invite you to subscribe to our show wherever you watch or listen.

We are so glad you’re here and we pray that our discussion truly blesses you and your marriage.

Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast.

Hey guys, welcome to the Marriage After God podcast. I’m so happy to have you.

Yeah, we’re excited to be here. Excited to chat. Aaron.

Yeah, so Bob and Linda Loick. It’s Loic, right? That’s how you say the last name.

It’s fine.

How do you say it right?

Well, we say Lodic, but apparently I guess it’s like German. And we talked to an actual German person and he told us that that wasn’t right. So you can say whatever you want. You

Don’t know how to say your own last name, you’re like, no, it’s German. And they’re like, no, that’s not how we would say it. You’re like, oh, okay. Okay. So Lodic Bob and Linda Bodek. Why don’t we start with who are you? How long have you been married, what is this ministry business you guys got going on? And then we’ll dig into some of what you guys are about.

Yeah, yeah. So we’ve been married 19 years now. We both were financial messes. We were really good at being a mess financially really good at racking up debt. And by God’s grace, he brought us together and we got to work with him through that. And we’ve gotten to see so many miracles. I hope we get to talk about some of them here. And through all that, he just kind of led us to our sharing what he had done in our financial lives with others, and that’s, we wrote a book and courses and all that stuff. So that’s kind of what we’ve been up to.

That’s awesome. And the reason I wanted to talk to you guys, first of all, you guys are awesome, fun to talk to. Thank you. When were Jennifer and I on your podcast? It was a while ago,

Maybe a year ago or so. Yeah.

And after I wasn’t talking, I was like, I really like them it, I want to talk to him again. But not only do you guys have a love for figuring out money in a biblical way, but you love each other and you love marriage and you just love seeing people thrive and draw closer to God. And that’s what we’re about here at Marriage I, for God. So I thought it’d be awesome to bring you on and we could talk about money and miracles and God’s perspective on all of this, which is what we should all be considering. I think you have a book. Is this your most recent book you’ve written? Do you have other books you’ve

Written? Yeah, that’s the book is the book is the book.

And it’s very good. I’ve been skimming through it. And you have, it’s not just like a here’s our ideas. You have statistics and you have quotes, and you have graphs, and you have everything in this book. So it’s called Simple Money Rich Life. And that’s why what we’re going to talk about today is money. And I think I want all of our listeners to pay close attention because my wife and I, we’ve been in debt massively, and then we got out of debt and then we’ve had debt again. And so we’ve been all around. We’re trying to figure out investing, we’ve walked through giving, and these are all the things I want to talk about with you guys today. So you guys minister to people, your ministry is called Seed Time.

Seed Time.

And so why don’t you talk about what led you guys to starting the ministry called Seed Time and what the focus is of that?

Yeah. Well, I think the story behind it really was I worked in the financial services industry. I grew up wanting to be an accountant. I just was one of those guys who just loved counting money and whatever. My parents at age nine said, I think that kid’s going to be an accountant one day. And I wasn’t an accountant, but it said something to how I was like, you can see a tomato seedling and you know what it headed. Anyway, all that to say, I worked in the financial services industry in 2008. I got laid off during the big financial mess that happened. And out of that, I had started a blog just before that writing about the Bible and personal finance and this intersection that I found to be so fascinating. And about six months into that blog, I get laid off and I start looking for another job. And as I’m doing this, I felt like the Lord was reviewing to me. He’s like, Nope, I don’t want you to look for another job. And I’m like, this is kind of weird because I’m newly married. I have my wife here and my father-in-law who’s checking in on me, make sure I’m going to take care of his daughter, and now I’m going to become a full-time blogger because God told me too in 2008 type of thing.

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So anyway, so that was kind of where the whole thing began. And then the thing that was so crazy about it is at that point, Aaron, my last month before I was officially fired, I had a few months notice that last month we made a hundred dollars from that blog in a single month. And I’m going into next month knowing I’m doing this full time, and I’m like, how the,

Were you running ads on your blog and that’s how you were monetizing it?

Yeah, we had a handful of ads in 2008. You had Google ads since you didn’t have a lot of options, there was options. But anyway, so we made a hundred dollars and I’m like, Lord, I don’t know how this is ever going to turn into a full-time. I’ve been working on it for six months and we made a hundred dollars. How is this ever going to work out? And so we did. We stepped out there, and that was one of the biggest, most scary kind of steps of faith that we’ve taken in our

Marriage. It’s pretty bold,

But we did it and we watched God show up. We had built up a little bit of a savings to cover us for a few months just to see, but we watched month after month, the income increased and within nine months it was more than my old day job. And then six months later it was double that. It was one of those things where I don’t, the fruit of obeying God was just so wonderful and beautiful, but that was the thing that led us into all of this stuff, talking about money. It all started there. And then from there it evolved into, because Linda wasn’t really involved much at that point. She was just, for

A long time

She was just running around spending all of our money. And

I’ve heard a couple stories like

That recently. So it took a few years for God to work, really for both of us to figure out that, wow, she has some value to add in this conversation. And a few years later, that’s when she kind of started getting on board and that we moved into the chorus, the podcast and all this stuff.

Well, real quick, there’s an important aspect to this. So just before losing your job, you began a blog. Was this a prompting of you were going through this journey of finances, starting your job, rethinking the way you see money?

Yeah, absolutely.

And you felt kind of a leading by the Holy Spirit. There was just some passion in you of, I want to talk about this and get other people thinking about it,

Starting the blog. I don’t know that I would’ve even said that. It

Was more, I mean, it was really an online journal, you think?

Yeah. Was this

Was 2008, this was thousand eight. Didn’t know what blogs

Were. He didn’t even know what it was. Somebody was explained it to him and he was like, okay, yeah, I could do that.

So I write and I put it online.

Yeah, you go on the and you type it in. So it was just kind of a crazy thing at that point, but it wasn’t necessarily a leading from God. I think it was just, I kind of want to write about this, talk about it just like unction. I don’t know. It might’ve been from the Holy Spirit, I didn’t know it. But when he said, I want you to not go find another job that felt really clear, this is God giving me direction.

Okay, Linda, how did you handle that as his new wife? You are. So you are not going to go get another job and you’re going to write a journal.

So my role in this was in the very beginning, I mean, he said he wanted to be an accountant. I was the type of girl that was praying to marry someone like this, because I was like, I don’t ever want to have to think about money again. I just want to marry someone who’s going to take care of it for me. And I did. So my job was to get on board with whatever his decisions were, because my top priority was that I didn’t want to have to think about it. So I just did whatever he said. So that happened for a long time. And as he’s getting into this, one of the things about Bob is that he’s not lazy. And so when he started talking about doing this full time, I think a lot of people think what that looks like is, oh, well, I’m just going to quit my job and I’m going to follow my dreams.

(10:20)
It didn’t look like that at all. What it actually was is, Hey, I think that the Lord is calling me to do this. What do you think? And then also, here’s my game plan and here’s how long we can give it in case it doesn’t work out, and here’s what we’re going to do. In the meantime, he had thought the whole thing through, so it wasn’t as irresponsible, I think, as some people think that it was, which gave me a lot of comfort in being like, okay, if we feel like this is God, then we should do it. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Well, it’s a huge difference between I feel the Lord prompted me a direction, and therefore I’m just going to jump in with no thought, no wisdom, no counsel, no plan, versus I feel like the Lord’s leading me this direction. If you’re leading that direction, Lord, what might I do to prepare? What’s the fallback if I feel like I’ve heard wrong? And I’m off course a little bit? And I think that’s the difference between someone walking in foolishness and wisdom, because I don’t believe the Lord calls us to do things in foolishness. He calls us to do them in wisdom. And that sounds like what you did. You went to your wife and you didn’t say, here’s what I’m doing. Get in line. You’re like, what do you think of this? This is what I’m feeling, and here’s how long we can do this safely. And this is the point at which if it’s not working, I will begin to do X, Y, or Z.

I’ll work at Starbucks. Huh? Exactly.

So that’s a really good thing to highlight, and thank you for doing that because

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, and I think it’s worth mentioning as someone who had never stepped out on any significant entrepreneurial venture, I had been an employee my entire life, this was really scary. And Linda, it was just so helpful having her support because she was supporting me and telling me that she believed in me. And so as I’m walking out in this and kind of feeling terrified and not trusting in my own ability and whatever, and ultimately it was God, but still for the married couples listening, that is something that again, your support of your spouse as they’re jumping into something bold and trying to follow the Lord, man, it is powerful, powerful.

It’s necessary. It’s not good. It would’ve been detrimental in the process if you did it without her. Absolutely. I don’t need your permission. I’m going to just go this way. Versus like, Hey, what will it take to get you on board with this and make you feel secure and safe to an extent, because there’s some things that we jump into and it’s going to be very hard to make it feel secure or safe, but there’s ways to do it.

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So another thing to note, it sounds like you had a buffer, you had some savings to allow you to take this calculated risk. So you were prepared for that moment when God was like, here’s another direction I want you to go. You were prepared rather than you weren’t prepared, and you feel like you heard something and you’re like, I have no way of doing this. Do you think that’s a good encouragement for those who are thinking about or feel like they’re being led in a direction that might be risky, might be financially insecure for a season, but could be potentially much better long-term investing or starting a business on the side that they hope to become their main thing?

Yeah. I like to go back to Joseph in Egypt quite often when we’re talking about this type of thing. Because once I, we had probably had a little bit of savings at the point, I got my pink slip, but it was probably, what, six or nine months

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Basically before the short of the story is that our entire department was getting eliminated because their company got bought out, and so they needed people to stay until the end. So they incentivized us to do that. So I had, from the moment I found out I was getting laid off, I had probably six to nine months. And so at that point I’m like, all right, we need to buckle down, pay off as much debt as we can, and then start saving as much as we can to have some sort of on ramp to try to do this thing we feel like God’s calling us to. And so if we go back to Joseph in Egypt, basically God gives him a heads up and says, all right, things are good, but they’re not always going to be good. Okay, so I want you to save, and this is interesting, we talk about this a lot, but it’s really interesting because he laid out a formula of how much to save, and he basically said, I want you to save 20% one fifth of all the produce that comes in, I want you to store, store away.

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And so if you think about that, it’s kind of like a, again, which is challenge and probably unrealistic for a lot of people, but just having that as a baseline of, all right, when we’re going into a season of uncertainty or when we know things are going to be bad, of which many people, if you talk to some preppers, it’s like, I

Was going to say, that’s our whole life now, isn’t it?

We know that there’s all kinds of terrible stuff up ahead or whatever. But the point is, is that if you know there are going to be rocky times ahead and especially if God has kind given you a heads up on that, it’s like, yes, take action, be wise, follow the pattern what Joseph did and get some stuff saved up.

I really like that. And that’s something that Jennifer and I actually felt compelled to when we were doing missionary work. When we first got married, I had school debt that was about to become, I dunno what the word is, it was deferred and then it was going to be coming. I had to start paying on it. And being missionaries, we had a few people donating to us and supporting us. It was not enough money to survive by any means. It was not going to be enough money to pay down the debt, the low minimum payment we were going to owe. And we both separately felt the Lord say, you got to go home and deal with this debt. And what we were feeling was get out of debt so that we can be freed up to do what God was having for us next, just like what you were talking about. And we did that. We went straight home. We drove home from, we were living in Canada, oddly enough at the time with a couple that was doing missions work. And so we drove home, moved in with our parents, we had no kids, which was a good time to work on getting out of debt, of course.

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And we spent the next few years, it was like a couple years of just every penny was going to debt, every single penny. But along the way we also started feeling convicted on giving, which felt contradictory to getting out of debt. You guys also went through something very similar of starting to understand not just getting out of debt, but starting to understand true giving. You mentioned the savings that 20%, that first thing to remind me of was the Jews have a thing called a oma. I don’t know if you guys know much about it. Essentially it’s a way of offering the, it’s a savings account that they break up into certain percentages. And it’s not 10%, I think it’s like 28% or something or 25%. It’s a weird number. And a percentage of their savings goes to giving to their rabbi. A percentage of their savings goes to giving to the media.

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A percentage of their savings goes to giving to someone who they don’t believe deserves it. They have this broke up. That 20% made me think of the TEMA of having a put away money for the sake of God’s work and doing that before you do anything else. It’s actually what Paul told, I think it was the Corinthians. He said, store up this your giving your offering so that when I come, I can collect it and even tells them, he says, take a little bit each week to put it away so that when I come, you’re not like, oh, we don’t have anything to give you. You’ll be prepared to give when I come. Not that it was like give it this much every time, but store it away so that it’s ready to be used when I It’s needed. So explain that process of going from like, well, we need to get out of debt so that we can be freed up. I feel like the process of learning to giving happened around the same time. Correct. Maybe you can expand on that. Yeah.

Well first I just love that you brought that verse up because I feel like most people skim past that

First Corinth 16, two, I believe.

Oh,

That was in the right book. Nice.

And then they go to second Corinthians, they just skip past that and they go to Second Corinthians where it talks about being a cheerful giver and they feel like, well, how can I do this? And it’s like, well, he already gave you the answer in the first letter in First Corinthians, which was store it up, put it away, keep it from yourself, from spending it. And so that when the opportunity is there, you’re ready. And it’s like it makes it so much easier to give when you’re already ready, don’t you think?

Oh, absolutely.

It’s just like, yeah, here you go, Lord, I’ve been waiting for this moment and now you finally get to give it and it just makes it really exciting.

This is literally the biggest biblical hack in terms of enjoying giving because I came from a place where I did not giving it hurt every time, and it felt like to my efficiency mindset, it felt like this is a waste of money. I’m throwing money away when I give. That’s where I came from and I learned to love giving. And the way I did was through this hack because what we did is we literally followed exactly what he said. We set up a separate account, so every time we get paid, we move money into that account. It’s just sitting there waiting to be given. It’s no longer ours. And then what we do is we pray throughout the month, God, where do you have for that money to go? And then he directs us, he gives us ideas, and then it’s like the money’s sitting there and it makes it so much easier to be generous and it’s like changed everything for us.

It takes away giving out of compulsion or giving out of, what was the other one? Oh my gosh, now I forgot it.

Second Corinthians nine. Somebody can tell guilt compulsion.

Yeah, just any of that. And yeah, you don’t have to be gritting your teeth being like, oh my gosh, I hope this works out. And you don’t have to be just being like, well, I’m just going to do it anyway. All of a sudden you are prepared, you’re ready to go. And you

Don’t have to say, all right, are we going to buy groceries or are we going to do this? It’s already segmented out, and so it just changes it so differently.

Anyway,

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It’s exactly what my wife and I did. We set up a separate savings or a checking account. We call it our tithe account, our giving account. And every time we’d get paid, we’d money immediately goes to that, and then we’d put money in our savings and then what was left in our spending account, and we would have a separate debit card. It wasn’t a credit card, it was a debit card just for giving so that any time we needed, and that’s the thing is the moment you did do it, I’m sure you have the same experience. All of a sudden opportunities show up for you to be able to give and you’re like, whoa, okay, this family needed gifts for Christmas because they had a major tragedy, or this person is trying to get out of debt, and you just felt prompted like, I want to help them get out of debt. Or a plethora of other infinite opportunities start arising when your mind’s on, I have this money that’s set aside, not for me, but for what God wants my family to use it for. Did you see that happen? Was there opportunities that popped up out of nowhere?

Oh yeah.

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I mean all the time, even still and now it’s kind of turned to the point where we have to say, okay, we are not everyone’s answer to prayer. God is everyone’s answer to prayer, and we have to be discerning in that it’s on the opposite side now, which is just crazy because when you do feel prepared like that all the time, you can start to feel like the hero. And I feel like the Lord goes, it’s not you, it’s me every single time. You need to be coming and checking with me and making sure that you are allocating your resources the way I have the way I want you to. So that’s very interesting. But I kind of want to go back though. You had mentioned talking about getting out of debt and giving at the same time, which I think is really important. Do you want to talk about that?

Well, you’re

Bringing it up.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. So sharing our experience with paying off debt and giving Aaron, we had at least two, if not three different points where we were trying to pay off debt, whether it was credit cards or car loans or even our house. And every single time God challenged us to give more while we were paying off that debt. And every single time we paid it off way faster than my spreadsheet said we would. Well,

And this is one of those things that I think is the opposite in the kingdom of God, because most financial experts will tell you, you need to stop giving and prioritize getting out of debt.

They worship the math and they look at what the math says, but that’s not kingdom economics.

Now, God wants us to trust him. And so he challenges us on the money side of things. This exact what you’re saying you experienced was the exact experience we had when we were getting out of debt. So we’re trying to pay off debt, we’re working our normal jobs. And then in the midst of that getting out of debt mentality, we’re like, Hey, what other skills can we do to work on the side so we can make extra cash to help pay off the debt? So now the Holy Spirit’s guiding us into learning to be entrepreneurs

(26:38)
At the same time as wanting to get out of debt. So we’re being obedient in one aspect, and God’s using that obedience to grow us in other areas. And then he challenges on giving. And this was a hard thing for my wife originally. It was like, well, I already don’t have anything. We’re already paying all of our money to this debt, and now you want to give that money away. And I remember thinking, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t get it either, but I feel like we should trust the Lord in this. And I went back, I think it’s in, is it in Malachi? I might be wrong. Where it talks about test me in this that

Malachi three.

Yeah. He says, see if I will not open the flood gates of heaven and pour out on you so much that you will not be able to store them and store houses. And I’m not a prosperity gospel believer at all. I do not believe that God just like, oh, you give and God blesses your life with more money. I think what he does, his promise when we give and having a heart open with our money and our things is that he’s able to take care of us better. He’s able to bless us and open our eyes. And like I said, he was teaching us to be entrepreneurs, which has infinitely paid back more than we’ve ever given just us pursuing our own careers, this own business. And it set us up for this ministry that we do now out of that simple obedience of just trying to get out of debt and then all the skills that we learned along the way.

(27:58)
We were doing family photography and weddings and taking pictures of people and making money that way. But no matter how much we started giving more jobs, came more opportunities for us to make more money came, and that was literally the economics of it. We would be paying off our debt, we’d be working hard, we’d be starting businesses and all the while we’re giving, and we literally weren’t able to outgive God. We were not able to give more than he was bringing back to us. Again, not in a prosperity gospel way of give a hundred dollars and he’s going to give you a thousand. No, he showed us so much more than we, and we learned the same thing, Linda, what you’re talking about of at a certain point, we’re like giving money, which is such a cool thing. It’s so cool to be able to give money and to bless people and to buy groceries for someone and to all these things that it’s a very physical need and a very logistical necessity. But we realized very quickly, wow, this is, money’s like the, I don’t know how to say this without making it sound derogatory, but it’s almost like the least valuable thing you can give.

(29:11)
It’s so passing. I mean, the Bible talks about it as a, it’s here and then gone tomorrow it comes and it goes, this is not a lasting thing. And so helping someone financially is awesome and often necessary in certain situations, but it’s the most passive thing you can do. It’s the most, it’s like the least powerful gift you can give, but it’s like the minimum, it’s like it starts there and then you start realizing there’s so much more value that I can give of my life. But it started with thinking about money that way, and then it was built upon that sacrificial understanding of how we give. You guys experienced that exact same thing, it sounds like.

Oh, sure.

Yeah. I remember a Billy Graham quote, and I won’t get it perfect, but he said something to the effect of if a person gets his heart right around money, it normally solves and works out most other problems in their life, which I thought was so fascinating because I’ve never really thought of it that way, but I do feel like there were so many positive byproducts for us as we kind of started getting things worked out and specifically around understanding that everything in our hand is not for us and that we are God’s managers. You know what I mean? He owns everything. We’re just managing for him. And it’s not just 10%, it’s a hundred percent, it’s percent. It’s all Gods

Second conversation though. This has come up by the way,

And it’s like, but what are we going to do? Are we going to try to pretend like, well, this is my 10% or my 3% according to the average American, how much they give?

No, 97% you mean?

Yeah, whatever. You get the point, or are we going to fully be submitted to, Lord, what do you have for me to do? And I’m with you, Aaron, I don’t believe in the name and claimant thing and to let’s twist God’s arm to make us rich, whatever thing.

(31:05)
But what we have, you read chapter nine of second Corinthians, and the entire thing is about giving. He says here, he’s like, God won’t be mocked. Whatever man sows, he’s going to reap. He’d be sow sparingly. He’s going to read sparingly. He sows bonaly, he’s going to sow bonaly. So we have of course preachers who have abused that and tried to take it the wrong way. But there is a biblical truth here that is just exciting that he does reward us when we step out in these things. And so of course we don’t give to get, but man, we’ve just seen so much of that that it’s like I just want to follow God wherever he leads.

Well, and I think that when you’re giving one way, God blesses you back is financially, but there’s so many other ways as well. And I think that does not, people don’t take that into account very often where there are massive blessings in their lives. I mean, even just health is one of them. Do you know what I’m saying? It’s like he is doing so, so much. Say that again.

Mental health, the stress and the anxieties and that when we can release those things and you feel peace and freedom.

Yes, exactly.

I feel like the majority of humans on the planet, that’s their base level need is that they just want some peace and some security, and that’s what they’re looking for. And you get that when you surrender that what you’re talking about surrendering your hold of money. Bob, in your book, there’s a quote that you said or one of your chapters, money makes a better servant than it does a master. And I loved that because when we serve money is when the Bible says that money is the roots of all kinds of evil. It’s not the root of all evil, but it’s the roots of all kinds

Of evil. The love of money,

The love of money, money. Thank you. What’s funny is people always misquote that, and I just misquoted it. I know it’s easy too, the love of money, but I always get bothered when people misquote it. I’m like, no, no, no. Money’s not the way we all can do. The love of it is I just did thank you for correcting me. But yeah, when we love money, it rules and we suffer for it. But when

We

Go ahead,

Yeah, it’s so subtle because I don’t think any of us intentionally go, all right, well, I’m going to choose to love money over God. But it’s this subtle little thing that creeps up. And we were talking to some of our podcasts a couple years ago and he said in the American culture that this is so prevalent and the materialism and everything that’s going on here, we’re so inundated. We’re like fish and water. We don’t even understand the level of materialism and consumerism that we’re surrounded with even to be able to make adjustments without the help of the Holy Spirit.

(33:57)
And so the point in all that is just that we have to be prayerful and we have to be asking the Lord to reveal to us what’s in our hearts because we don’t even know. We don’t even know. David prayed that God would reveal to him what’s in his heart. So it’s like it’s a really important piece of this thing is that we’re actively asking him, Lord, are there any areas where I am leaning in this direction of serving mammon, of serving money, of making that my Lord rather than you? Because it’s really subtle and it can creep in really easily. It’s

Sneaky.

Okay. I feel like the Holy Spirit just brought a story to my mind when you were talking about worshiping money, and we don’t even really notice it. When Moses goes up on the mountain to get the 10 Commandments from the Lord, to get the law from God, and Aaron’s down with all the people and they complain. He’s been up there, he, he’s not coming back, make for us a God, make us something to worship. And what does he do? He says, give me all of your gold. So each one of them pitches in their money, their gold,

And

We threw it in and out came a cow, but it was subtle, but really all donated, they all bought in to something to worship. And we do this with our money. We buy in, what are we throwing our money in and what’s coming out of it? What are we spending our money on? And what comes out of that spending?

So as you’re saying that, I’m thinking about that passage, I need to go back and read it now, but the first thing that comes to mind is how did impatience play factor into that

They were not wanting,

Willing to wait on God? Because again, and I’ll just challenge or I’ll just say one of the things that God challenged us with at certain points with credit cards and we have a credit card, I don’t have a problem with credit cards. We’re not a hundred percent anti credit card. Now, we do pay the balance off every month, but the point is that we had certain points where we were facing a financial challenge and we could have ran to the credit card as our savior, but God challenged us and said, you can do that, or you can come to me and watch what I do. And I don’t know. It is interesting just thinking about that in context of what you just said.

No, that’s where it started. They were supposed to be waiting and watching

(36:23)
For the Lord to show up. And they were fearful too. There was fear involved. Remember how they were afraid because of the thunder and the lightning and the storm, and they’re like, don’t come down to us. You speak for us. We don’t want to be destroyed by God. They were afraid, first of all, and they’re in this wilderness. We’re all in this wilderness. We are wandering together, waiting for our home with the Lord. But they were afraid. Then they were impatient, and then they complained and they longed for something to worship. And I think that’s the base nature of all of us is we were created to worship, but God wants us to worship him. And so instead we find out, we try and find all these other things to worship, to put our money and time and energy and eyes on, and that comes a golden cow. Look at this thing. He’s like, it’s a cow made of all our gold, but it’s a cow. Yeah. I don’t know why I thought of that, but you were talking about that. I was like, that’s what that sounds like to me. Yeah, yeah. Worshiping for

Sure. And I like that idea of they were afraid. I think we were just talking about this yesterday actually. Most of the time when you get afraid, you make quick bad, usually bad decisions.

Decisions made out of fear are normally not the best decisions you’re going to make

Because they’re just, but as opposed to when there is a heads up from God, when you feel, so in the instance of Bob getting laid off, it was like God gives you time to get wisdom. That’s what I think. He either gives it to you immediately or he allows you a little bit of space to be able to make the right decision. But every time you let fear make that decision, when it’s dominated by fear, it’s always like, I’ve got to know right now I have to do this right now. I have to. It’s like this really quick reactionary response rather than what does God say about this? What does the Bible say about this? What do some wise counselors have to say about this? And it’s just interesting. Yeah, they’re like, Aaron’s going, well, what am I going to do with these people? Well, just give me your goal. Give me your goal and we’ll just,

I’ll make you something,

Right? I’ll make you something. And of course it was the wrong thing to do, but it’s just so interesting how fear plays such a strong role in that.

So speaking of fear, early on in the financial struggles in your marriage, were most of the financial struggles or were they during?

Well, important point here. Struggles don’t go away. I know you know this.

Wait, that’s not what I’m trying to get at. I’m just kidding. I know, I know. But

Important they do go away. But because I do think for anybody listening, this is something that I feel like I talk to people about all the time. They think once you start having more income or whatever, the problems are gone. It’s, they’re different problems and bigger sometimes and more dangerous, whatever. But anyway, so yeah, in terms of what you’re talking about, Erin, get into that. We were just a complete mess before we got married, both of us. And as we got married, I was one step down the road ahead of her barely. And so we kind of limped through that the first

Couple of years. Think in the very beginning it was, we didn’t even know what the struggle, our struggle was that we didn’t know what the problem was. And we had to figure that out.

(40:00)
Then it became, alright, now we can see what the problem is. Now we need to seek wisdom on how to do this the right way. And now it’s continuing that that’s the rest of our lives, I think is going to be what does the wisdom say now that we’re in this tricky situation? We plan for the best, but things don’t always go as you plan. And so what does wisdom look like in this situation and how can we work through this as a team? And in the very beginning it was a lot of me just being like, Bob, please figure this out and just tell me what we’re doing. But it’s not as much like that anymore. Now it’s really like, how do we want to solve this problem? Which is great. That’s the grace of God in my life that I can actually have a conversation about it and not freak out or explode.

Well, and I think one other piece here that’s worth mentioning, this is a marriage podcast that unity, and we tell this when we talk to married couples all the time, it’s like fight for unity around finances because it’s so easy to do the opposite. And when you get in unity with your finance, it’s just like anything else. This Aaron, it makes everything so much easier. And finances are definitely one of those things. And so that’s what we’re always encouraging couples is fight to be in unity together on the thing. Whatever that looks like.

I don’t feel like, I know it’s true. When you have one person in the marriage trying to get on track, I want to get us out of debt. I want to get more money in our bank account. I want to start saving. I’m thinking about having money for our kids when they grow up. Investing the mind shifts that way on one’s person’s side. And if the other person’s like, that’s great. I have my things I want, I’m going to spend the money the way I want, don’t stop me. It’s tug of war. You make a foot step this way and then two steps this way, and you make a half inch this way and then three inches this way and you’re never going any direction. Well, I guess you’re going backwards the whole time. Did you find Linda, when you started realizing I’m going to get on the same page and I’m going to start helping him in his direction and being more focused and more attentive to this goal of ours, did you see, was there a slightly better trajectory or was it like an exponential one?

Yeah, I mean, I remember we went through a financial class and I remember coming out of that class with a fire lit under me, and I was like, why isn’t our house paid off? Why haven’t we done this? Why haven’t we done that? And Bob was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. Was this the Dave Ramey class? I’ve been doing this all along. And I just remember being like, okay, I am fully on board now. But over time, what I have come to realize is that it was really what I was doing for most of our marriage was I was saying, well, he wants to save all this money and I really want to spend, but he’s figured out the math, so he must be right. That was not correct. I didn’t realize that both of us using those things that God put in us are actually, they’re both right. They just need to be submitted to God.

(43:33)
And so I think once we realized that the unity was one layer of it for sure, but realizing that the things that God had put in my heart and kind of how he designed my personality was actually okay. And that was really freeing. And I think it not only got me to want to be more involved in this, but it actually helped him to realize that not all of her, I’m sorry, not all of his ideas are the best ideas. In other words, he could allow some wisdom to come out of me. And not that he was trying to push it away before, but I think there was just a, it’s just always better to save than it is to spend. And it’s like, well, no, actually, if you go in the Bible, you’re looking at how God lavish gifts on us. Do you know what I mean?

For the purpose of his glory and the growing of

This, for the purpose of his glory, he has no problem giving. And in a person who it’s easy for money to leave their hands, it makes giving really easy on a person who wants to save, save, save. And there’s no amount of money in their bank account that will ever make them feel secure. That’s actually not biblical.

No,

It’s against the Bible. And so once we started realizing that we both had strengths to bring to the table, that submitted to the Lord and submitted to each other actually made us better. That, I mean, that was a really huge lesson I think for both of us. But yeah, when there are two people working together on something, it doesn’t just get done a little bit faster, it gets done. This is a perfect example. Most mornings I make our bed. I like having a maid bed. It’s just how I grew up and whatever. And there are some times where I will call Bob and I’ll be like, will you help me make the bed? Because it doesn’t make, it’s not that I make the bed faster by double, it’s that it takes me like 15 seconds instead of three minutes. It’s just so much faster. I don’t know what the math is on that. Can you do that? I’ll do

The math. I’ll get a cap here.

But it’s just that it’s so much faster. And it works like that with your finances. It works like that with everything in marriage. I mean, you know this, but I mean it just was amazing how as soon as we both just, I don’t even think we really did that much different. It was just being in that unity that we were both like, yeah, let’s go for it.

We were walking the same direction. And back to your metaphor, Aaron, of going inches this way inch, we’re now laser focused in the same direction. Even though we’re not going super fast, it’s still the momentum. It moves so much quicker.

What’s that verse in Proverbs two are better than one for they have a better return for their labor. And those biblical principles. Actually, when I think about giving, and I think about money, it’s such a directly spiritual thing. And as is money itself is not inherently evil or good, alcohol is not inherently evil or good food, not inherently evil or good. We learn this in the Bible that these things, these, they’re inert. They just are

Objects.

It’s the human element that turns them into something more than an inert thing.

And

Our relationship, and this is something that as believers we need to be very aware of, is that we are the variable that spiritually interacts with all of these inert things. And so how we relate to money or food or other humans is all the spiritual thing. As Jesus said, it’s not what goes into the body, it’s just going to go through your stomach and be expelled. He’s like, it’s what comes out of us is what defiles man. And so what’s coming out of us and how are we relating to the things that God’s given us? I love the parable that Jesus gives us about the stewards. One, he’s given five talents and one he’s given one talent. One he’s given 10 talents. And it literally is a perfect analogy that Jesus gives specifically to talk about his people. How are his servants taking care of the things he’s given us? And yes, that is absolutely referencing our physical things, money, home, cars, jobs, all of those things in the most literal sense of investing. How are we taking care of these things and investing them? But it’s also talking about our spiritual things. How are we taking care of the grace that God has given us? Paul makes this very clear. Are you walking or running the race as to win the prize? Are you taking the salvation you have and taking it for granted or not taking it for granted? What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I don’t know. What are your thoughts?

Yeah, I mean we do talk about the parable, that parable a lot because

I talk about it all the time.

It’s one of my favorites. Yeah, I mean it is. It’s referencing so many different things, and obviously we talk about it in the context of finances because I think a lot of people don’t realize that it matters what they do, what their money. I think there’s sort of this mindset of if I can just take care of myself, everything will be okay if I can take care of me and my family. And again, that’s just not scriptural. And because we live in this world, it’s hard to see the lies that we’ve been believing because they are so normalized by everyone around us, including our parents, and even people that we trust spiritually. This is not, I don’t think anybody’s trying to do it. It just is the world we live in. And so there’s this wrestle with our flesh in the justification of how we manage what God has given us. But the Bible says in him, we live and move and have our being. Oh wow. Everything we have is, it is by his grace that we are standing here not living at all. He had to breathe in us to make us alive.

He holds each one of our cells together, doesn’t he?

Yeah. He knits us together in our mother’s womb. There’s just everything about our life is his. And so to just get up and worship God on Sunday morning and then when it’s time for giving, we shut down because, well, I just have to take care of my family. It’s just really tragic. And so that’s why we do talk about that so much. And I think that’s what struck me about this idea of what we were talking about earlier of money can come and go very easily in and out of my hands. That is my strength that I bring to this marriage. He can come up with a spreadsheet and stick to a plan really good, but what happens when God calls you outside of the plan? The two of us have become one, and now the two of us are accountable for what happens and how we steward

Our

Resources. And I think that that is just a really important thing to keep in mind when we are having these conversations of how do we steward this conversation about finance as well,

Or when you’re having the fights Yeah,

About

Money. It’s all part of it,

Right?

What are some, go ahead.

Oh, go ahead. No, you finish.

I was just going to ask another question, but I want you to finish your thought.

I don’t remember it now.

Okay. Sorry about it. It’s long gone. Gone and it’s gone. You mentioned stewardship, and that’s kind of been the whole topic we’ve been talking about. I was like, all that we have is Gods, and I totally agree with this. A lot of believers love to sit in the like, well, as long as I give my 10%, which most believers don’t even give at all, and it’s like 10% of the congregation gives a hundred percent of the giving. And that’s a pretty standard quote that gets or statistically thrown around, probably true. But none of what we’re doing is just to, again, bring obligation or compulsion to anyone to give, because we know biblically that is not at all how they want to give. People are to give just because Aaron and Bob and Linda said, you should give. And they’re like,

Okay,

We want people to have a surrendered heart toward their money and have an understanding for it. So coming back to this conversation as stewardship, I think a good way to close out this conversation is what are some practical things right now? I would imagine most people, especially nowadays with inflation, with the cost of groceries, and it hurts me. I just sold one of my cars and bought a new car that has better gas mileage purely for the gas mileage, and I miss some of the luxuries of that last car, but this one has way better gas mileage. That’s the luxury that I care about right now. But how they’re in this place, I would imagine the majority have some serious debt that they don’t know what to do with, and I’m not talking good debt. I’m talking about the consumer debt and they’re listening and they’re like, that sounds great, but we’re so deep. We’re so trapped. Or maybe they’re mediocre and they’re like, we’re okay. What are some practical things that they can start looking at? What are some questions they can ask themselves to be able to identify where they’re actually at and then start moving in a new direction?

Yeah. Well, yeah. This is one of my favorite things to talk about. So we talk about the spiritual side, and that’s because it needs to be intertwined as believers. This is our unfair advantage to be able to tap into the Lord for wisdom on all this stuff.

(53:58)
But I love nerd out on the practical stuff, and so we can go as far and deep as wide as you want. But the thing that comes to mind, just honestly as we’re talking about this, is the question where God asked Moses, what’s in your hand? And I’ve seen this played out multiple times where there’s a proverb too that I’ve kind of explored a little bit where it says that there’s abundance in the fallow ground of the poor or something like that. And just this concept of I think we have no idea the potential and what God can do through what the resource that we do have. And I think so often we miss that. And so on a practical level, what this looks like is the reality is most of us in America spend hours on our phone a day and then maybe hours in front of Netflix or whatever the thing,

Not me,

Not you. So we have this time, okay, our most precious and valuable resource. And so what are we going to do with that? Because the truth is, in the year 2024 when we’re recording this or 2025, whatever, it’s the best time in the history of the world to be able to take your time into turn it into income in one way or another.

Absolutely.

The gig economy, it’s crazy how many opportunities there are from delivering groceries to doing DoorDash to whatever number of things there are. I found something not too long ago where we had certain people in our community who were making hundreds of dollars on a weekend just by pet sitting basically. And there’s a website called rover.com or something. You can go on there and you can just pet sit. And so if you want to have a dog in your house, we don’t have a dog, but we’d love to have a dog come in every weekend, let the kids play with it or whatever. You can do that and get paid and get paid a couple hundred dollars in winter, maybe cover all your car payments for the month just by doing that. And so there’s just so many opportunities, but it starts with looking at what’s in your hand, what is the opportunity that you have available to you? And there’s multiple passage throughout the scripture where coming to mind as we’re thinking about this, but that’s the one thing that starts. And the other direction I would take this as well is especially when we view ourselves and understand that we are managers of what God has entrusted us. A good manager knows what they’re responsible for.

(56:27)
You are not going to walk into any store, grocery store or whatever and talk to a manager. It’s like, I don’t know what I’m responsible for. That’s their job, is to know what they’re responsible for. So us as believers, we need to know and understand what has God put into our hands? What are we responsible for? So many people, I talk to people all the time, how much money do you actually earn and spend each month?

(56:50)
I don’t know. I don’t know. I know there’s nothing left at the end of the month. I know I got credit cards that are increasing, but I don’t really know Bob. And that’s where it starts. And so there are different tools. One tool that we recommend a lot of time is an app called Rocket Money. And you can go on there and you can, it’s a paid service, but you can even do it for free at the time of this recording where you go in there and they ask you how much you want to pay and you can pay $0 to try it out. But anyway, this tool, you go in there, you plug in your bank accounts and you can connect to them and connect your credit cards or whatever, and then you can immediately, within two minutes know exactly how much you spent on groceries for the last three months. This is incredibly valuable information that most people don’t actually know. They just know it feels tight. And what happens, Aaron, what’s so cool about this is once you have that information, now you can make decisions affecting it. So for example, we had one couple we were working with who came to us and said, we are so broke. Things are so tight, we feel like we need to move out of our house and get a cheaper house. While they had a baby,

They had a baby and she was like seven months pregnant.

So just not an ideal timeframe. That’s a rough time to make a decision like

That. Rough time to move.

So we had them do this exercise. So I said, go do this. Come back to me. Tell me how much you spend eating out. And before that, stepping back, I said, how much do you think you spend eating out? And she said, I think we spent about $200 a month. I was just trying to see if there was something there. And I said, go do this exercise, come back to us. She came back, she said, Hey guys, I hate to say this, but we have been spending $800 a month eating out. And with that I’m like, great, we’re not the police where we’re going to tell you how to spend your money. We’re not going to yell. You are ashamed you for how

To money. You save yourself $800

Right now. But now it’s like

Now you have a choice.

You get to

Choose. If you want to move, you can move. But if you’d rather eat out and move, you can do that. But if you’re either stay in your place and just reduce your spending, get it down to $200 a month, but you have a choice

Because

You have that information. That’s why this is so important.

That’s really good. I love that. And starting with that mentality shift, the recognition of whose money you are managing. It’s not my money I earned. It’s not her money she earned. It’s not even our money. It’s his money.

(59:09)
And he’s allowed us to have it to be used to take care of us, take care of our kids, take care of our community, but he wants it to be recognized. And I think that’s a good starting point for any of our listeners. First and foremost, just praying and asking the Lord to transform their thoughts and their minds and their hearts toward their money and realizing whose it is that they’re stewarding and that it’s not good to just be frivolous. I mean, we’re going to do it at times, but to take a step back and be like, what is this? What are we doing with what we have? How is it being spent? What was that website again? Rocket What?

Rocket money.com. I believe it is. Yeah.

I’m actually going to check that out. I’m curious. I’m scared to see how much I spend on eating out.

Oh, it’s so good. Let me know. It’s such a valuable exercise that our students, we force them to do this because it’s a game changer for so many people. They don’t know what you’re spending on. And when you don’t know, you can’t be a good manager of

It. Well, you can’t adjust. It’s like never having a mirror.

You know

What I mean? It’s like you wake up in the morning, you don’t know what’s going on. Yeah,

That’s true. I feel like there’s probably a bunch of Bible scriptures about that, seeing clearly. And

(01:00:27)
You mentioned about what’s in your hand? The first story I thought of, I just had a conversation with my wife about this. We were talking about feeling unqualified in certain things. I feel like the Lord brought to my attention the story of the fish and the bread and the feeding, the 5,000. The disciples come and it’s late, and they’re like, Hey, you need to send all these people away because it’s super late. They need to go eat. And then Jesus looks at him and he says, you feed ’em. They’re like, what? Not even a year’s wages will feed these people. And he’s like, well, what do you have that I’m going to use to feed these people?

(01:01:04)
And that is the reality is what’s in our hands. I think you think about your time, you mentioned time, which is such a huge thing. I don’t think we realize that that’s the most valuable resource we have. There is no making more of it. There is no manufacturing. There is no taking any of it back. You only have what you have now. And I’ve had people in the past that they lose a job and they, I’m like, what are you doing? They’re like, oh, I’m looking for another job. I’m like, well, how many hours did you spend today looking for a new job? They’re like, oh, I spent 30 minutes, 40 minutes filling. I filled out five applications. I’m like, oh. And then I’m like, why don’t you treat looking for a job? Like a job? You have eight hours. How many jobs can you apply to an eight hours a day?

(01:01:49)
Do you think you’ll find one within a week if you’re applying for eight hours a day and filling out applications and making phone calls? They’re like, huh, I never thought about that. I’m like, well, what are you doing just sitting on the couch watching tv? Wasting? The most valuable asset you have is eight hours a day. You have to work. Anyways, those are really good bits of advice for our audience. Do you have any last encouragement for our listeners about finances? I was bringing up a second ago. I don’t think I’m the only person that’s feeling the weight of our current financial situation in our country. I think everyone’s affected by it. Gas, groceries, all the normal things are just so expensive. I can’t get out of Costco without spending 700 bucks or more, and that lasts me like a week. It’s like, I’m going to have six kids. So that’s part of it. But that same groceries used to be like 300. So it’s a thing. How would you encourage our listeners to have hope and to know that God can work in their finances and marriage? Oh,

I got something. And then I dunno if you do, but yeah, I think what you’re saying there is the important thing, just acknowledging that it is a real thing because we’re talking to people all the time about this and

We’re having conversations about this ourselves.

We’re dealing, everybody’s feeling it. And I think it’s really important to acknowledge that it is a real thing. But what’s more important to understand that as believers, we are not limited to the world’s economy.

We

Are part of God’s kingdom and we are part of God’s economy, preach it. So the best thing we can do is to tap into that. And so really just going to God, asking for wisdom on these things and understanding that he is our provider and that he’s faithful. And you look at the birds of the air and that verse in Matthew, wherever that is, I dunno, six or something, and just this idea that he’s taking care of the birds and they don’t sew, they don’t reap, they don’t do any of that stuff, but yet he’s still continuing to take care of them. And then Philippians four 19 says, he’s going to supply all of our need according to his riches and glory by Christ Jesus. So he is faithful. He’s a provider, and he’s going to come through for us. So the best thing that we can do is to invite him into our finances, to continue to stand on the word and the promises that he’s made to us as our provider, and then listen and obey wherever he leads because it’s just like the fish that you’re talking about, the loaves and the fishes.

(01:04:14)
It’s like he often uses these very unconventional ways to provide,

I’m assuming,

But we have to be willing to obey and to follow. Awesome. Anything you want to add?

Yeah, I mean, I was just going to say, don’t allow fear of the past trauma, your preconceived ideas of what has already happened to not let you continue on this journey of sorting this out with the Lord. God says that he’ll bring healing in every area. He wants to heal our hearts in this area. And I think sometimes when two people come together and they have very different ideas, a lot things, you can get triggered a lot. And then it turns out into this fight before you’re even, we didn’t even talk about the thing we needed to talk about. We just ended up in a fight. And I just want to encourage you to press past it as best as you can. Use every single tool that these guys have given you because it matters what you do with your finances. I think that God is looking for his children.

(01:05:25)
Who of them can he use? And I think this is a huge area where we can open ourselves up to God and say, I want you to use me in this area. And I think he is faithful to tie up all those loose ends to get you guys on the same page and to heal up any of the past hurt and trauma that might be there from how you grew up or how you even as a couple have handled it in the past. Because this actually really is something that’s important that I think salvations depend on this. People’s lives depend on it, and it’s an exciting thing that we get to be part of. And so don’t just lay it down and say, this is too hard. I can’t do it.

Yeah. I love that. I need to have you guys on again. I’m just thinking right now of all the more specific topics we could just stick into on investing.

Love to. We’d love it.

Savings or giving Or we could just talk about,

I got 10 more hours of stuff I want to talk about here.

Yeah, I’m just thinking. I have questions. I’m, I’m trying to get into investing a little bit more in real estate and stuff.

We got a whole course on that. I would love to talk about that all day.

So I think that’d be awesome. And I think our audience would be blessed by that. Jennifer and I did an episode, oh gosh, a year ago, two years ago, and it was on just ideas on how to make some extra cash. And we just went through all, you were talking about the gig economy that if you had some time to just go figure out how to make money, there is so many opportunities to make money. It’s so weird. We live in a time, it’s the easiest ever to figure out how to make some extra cash.

But it still work. You still do still work.

You still have

To do something, but there’s so many opportunities.

Yeah. So thank you guys for being on here. Why don’t you share just straightforward, where can people find you? And I want all my listeners to go check out Bob and Linden and what they’re doing. Where can they find you?

Yeah, so yeah, we have the book you mentioned Simple Money, rich Life, and then we have a podcast, the Seed Time Money podcast, and we have a website with courses and all that stuff. Seed time.com.

Yeah, go sign up for their courses and get your finances in check so that you can be more of a blessing to your family and to others. Thank you so much, Bob and Linda. I love you guys. This was an awesome conversation. Look forward to having you on another episode.

Can’t wait. Thanks, Sierra. Take care.

Do you desire to pray more for your spouse? Do you desire to pray more with your spouse? We understand that you may not know where to start, or maybe you feel uncomfortable praying, or maybe you don’t know what to pray, or maybe you simply want to add more to your current prayer life. This is why we wrote the Marriage Gift 365 prayers for our Marriage. We desire that it would be used as a daily reminder and catalyst for you and your spouse to grow a dynamic and consistent prayer life together. This book is a compilation of 365 unique and powerful prayers that cover a range of diverse topics that every marriage deals with. You can read it alone, or ideally you read it with your spouse. Also, we hope that the topics that are brought up in these prayers would become a starting point for deeper and more intimate conversations with your spouse and a desire to seek God on these matters together.

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