Biblical Marriage Roles – Interview With Michael and Tania Koehler

We’re looking for people who have been blessed by this free podcast and our free daily marriage prayer emails, and who want to help be a blessing to others. Creating and hosting this podcast and sending out our daily emails do incur financial cost, and we want to invite you to join our faithful patron team to help financially support these resources so that they can remain free for all who need them. Please join our patron team today and become one of the faithful financial supporters who desires to help bless thousands of marriages around the world. Your support will help us pay for the creation, hosting, and promotion of our podcast and daily emails. Thank you. And we hope to see you become a marriage after God patron. Hey friends. Welcome to another episode of The Marriage I Forgot podcast. In this episode, I get to the pleasure of interviewing Michael and Tanya Kohler, the founders of marriage mania ministry.com.

(00:45)
And this couple, they’ve been in marriage ministry for 11 years. They love God. They love the word of God. And this episode you’ll clearly see that as they pull out scripture after scripture. Um, but one of the main topics that we talk about that I think you’re gonna really enjoy is we get into the, the topic of biblical roles in marriage. What is the role of a man in the marriage? What is the role of the woman in the marriage? What does God say about all of this? And so we discuss these things in depth, and so please enjoy my interview with Michael and Tanya Kohler.

Hey, I’m Erin. And I’m Jennifer.

And we’re the host of the Marriage After God Podcast. Our desire is to help you cultivate a marriage that chases boldly after God’s will for your life together.

We want to invite you to subscribe to our show wherever you watch or listen.

We are so glad you’re here, and we pray that our discussion truly blesses you and your marriage.

Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast.

So Michael and Tanya, thank you for being on my show. You’re the fourth guests that I’ve had on our show, <laugh>

Amazing.

And I’ve been on your podcast now Twice. Twice, yes. So now you get to be on mind.

<laugh>,

Welcome. Thank you, <laugh>.

Thank you so much. Yeah. We’re so grateful and honored that you have us on your podcast.

Yeah, no, I’m, I we’ve, we’ve known each other for a little bit now because you interviewed me now on two of our books. Um, did you interviewed me and my wife the first time, right? Or was it just

Me? No, I think, I think Jennifer was pregnant

And she wasn’t feeling

Well. That’s well, probably true.

That’s probably true. So me twice. That’s okay. I got both of you guys, so I’m, I get to be the lucky one. Uh, so thank you for being here. Why don’t we, ’cause my audience, some of ’em probably already know you guys and maybe they don’t, maybe others don’t. Why don’t you share a little bit about who you guys are, what the name of your ministry is online, and, uh, we’ll go from there.

Yes. Um, we’re Michael and Tanya Kohler. We live in Virginia and we have an 8-year-old daughter. We have been married for 11 years. We have a marriage and family ministry called Marriage Mania Ministry, <laugh>. We have been doing marriage ministry for 11 years, the same amount of time we’ve married. We were asked to join the marriage ministry team in our church after being married three months, which wow, we thought was crazy. But surprisingly, we felt the Lord after much prayer was calling us in that direction. And we saw how he had been preparing us. And in a few years, we were leading the marriage ministry at our church, focusing on discipling ourselves and other couples to do marriage and child discipleship God’s way. That’s our focus, discipling spouses and parents to strengthen godly marriages and raise passionate Jesus followers. And we are constantly learning and teaching.

(03:35)
We have, we have led the marriage ministry at our church, teaching classes on marriage and raising and discipling children, mentoring couples. One-on-one. We have recently expanded our reach by going online with our ministry with social media. We have a podcast called Marriage Mania Ministry, focusing on marriage and parenting and discipling our children. We write books and other materials, hold some classes online, mentoring individuals and couples one-on-one. We’re in the process of completing a bunch of different books. We’re writing about five different books at the same time. We’ve completed Wow. We’ve completed a couple. It’s of work. Yes. Yes. And we keep getting distracted and bounce back and forth between the different ones. Tanya has a marriage coloring book out there, and we have a marriage gratitude journals out there. And Tanya recently, self-published a bible study called The Helper, the role of a Biblical Wife, which has really struck a chord with a lot of wives. And, and Tanya’s in the middle of an online class with this Bible study. Everybody’s asking for the husband version. And I’m al almost done with the companion bible study on the role of a biblical husband. So we’re working hard to get that out soon. And while at the same time we have an 8-year-old daughter who we homeschool and is involved in so many activities with music and sports and such, and keeps us busy.

Yeah. It’s a lot to keep up with. And half the time, like, Lord, you gotta give us strength to do your will. But I do wanna mention if it’s okay, how we met. Um,

Yeah, I was gonna be my next question actually. <laugh>.

Great. Well, um, Michael and I met at church actually in Sunday school, uh, I guess 11 years, 11 plus years ago, almost 12, something like that. And, uh, he came into our Bible school and I’ll try to make a Bible class and he, I’ll have to kind of keep this short, but he came in and he had this Bible and I saw it, and it was Spanish because that’s my first language. I speak Spanish. So I was like, I’m drawn to that. But I really wanted to know, does this man really walk with the Lord? He actually saw my Bible, which was like torn up. It was written all over and everything. He was like, oh man, I’ve gotta go back and bring my old Bible to <laugh> <laugh>. So like the next week he brought his old Bible and I was so impressed. I’m like, okay, this man, obviously he’s in the word. And, uh, you know, we started talking, um, after praying about it, um, after me actually giving you lots of questions of like, do you really, do you really walk with the Lord? Are you really saved all these things? I really gave him the third degree. But, um, we went on a date and I felt so bad because it was his birthday. I had no idea. And I told myself the whole time, I don’t think I’m supposed to be here <laugh>, because I didn’t pray about this and

A good shot.

Yeah. But, um, I was, you know, I came from a past of different relationships and people would say they’re believers and they were not walking as you know, they were. And so I was very cautious. So we, I told him to pray about it and he did. And then we started meeting after church and talking about things. And then the Lord just gave me a verse, and I just knew that Michael would be my husband. We got married within six months and Wow. We were called into the ministry, um, like three months later. And I kind of griped about it. <laugh> honestly, I was like, I don’t wanna be in marriage ministry. Why? Because we just got married. We need to enjoy our own life. We’re doing ministry with, you know, women and you’re doing ministry with God. So I’m like, I don’t, you know, but anyway, I submitted after a little griping, but I submitted,

Marriage is such a big thing to get into and I was so intimidated by it. And to me, the best way to learn is to teach.

Yeah.

And that’s where we’ve always kind of done ministry is like, what do we wanna learn? You know, what do we want to teach? Well, what do we wanna learn? So let’s just, you know, let’s, let’s pursue that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so we always taught what we wanted to learn and it just forces you to just research things and just really get in depth with things. And so I just saw the, the, the benefit of just coming alongside other couples and discipling one another. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and learning from each other. And that’s how it started. And you can gain a certain level of expertise doing that from reading so many books to where you go from facilitating classes and leading a discussion to actually put, uh, teaching a lot of it from your own, uh, experience and, and based on knowledge. But that’s how it’s kind of progressed.

Yeah. There’s a, a bunch of things I’m thinking about as I’m hearing you as a story. F first of all, it’s similar in some aspects to my wife and I were, we got into mar this marriage minister that we have about five years after we got married. And so it wasn’t as quite as quick, but still felt very early. And we were like very freshly like growing and maturing and coming out of some pretty unhealthy things in our marriage where it sounds like you guys were much more healthy where you were at. Uh, but, uh, just a quick side question. Looking back, would you have said yes as soon as you did the same way to that marriage ministry, knowing what you know now? Or would you have taken a little bit more time in your marriage? Or do you not have any regrets?

I, I think, I mean, I would’ve said yes, I think probably pushed back a little bit, um, <laugh> on Michael <laugh>. And it was, it was just, I, I don’t know why I was not felt feeling like I was called and, you know, our feelings can lead us astray, but I just felt like, okay, why us? Um,

I got a little pushback from her, but I, I really felt strongly that this was where the Lord was leading us. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I wasn’t, I wasn’t telling her what to do, but I really, really tried to emphasize that point that I really feel God is calling us here. And I know it’s crazy ’cause we’ve only been married for three months.

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Um, but, um, you know, the leadership of the marriage ministry feels confident in us and they, they see something in us that we can contribute to the marriage ministry. Yeah. And, and I saw how God was doing things to prepare us for this calling.

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

And so I thought we were ready and I thought we could do this. And if we approached it at a certain angle where we weren’t telling other experienced couples what to do, but we’re rather just, Hey, let’s disciple one another. We’re we’re leading a discussion here and we wanna learn from you as much as you learn from whatever input we can put in. But let’s just come alongside one another and support one another and disciple one another. And I think that worked pretty well.

And I think too, Erin, um, a lot of the leaders knew us individually as we were really pouring into different ministries. So I think that also brought the confidence. But there was also this feeling for both of us as like, we’re gonna go to a marriage ministry where people have been married 10 years Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And here we are, we’re gonna be teaching them at three months. And we, we did get a lot of pushback, um, from a lot of people just saying, you don’t understand marriage. You know, it was very hurtful. There’s a lot of things in marriage ministry that we’ve experienced at our hurtful, but through the process, I know the Lord has strengthened us. So yes, I would say yes, I would hopefully go back and not gripe. But yes,

There’s a lot of hurting marriages out there and and they project it on other people sometimes. And so it is hard when you’re in marriage ministry ’cause you can, you can sometimes get that hurt projected on you, but you just have to come from a little bit of understanding that, that you got couples that are just going through some really deep struggles

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

And, um, it’s kind of an honor and a privilege and a big responsibility to come alongside them and do what you can to just mentor them and disciple them and cry with them at times.

Yeah.

And it’s just, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a high, it’s a high calling. Yeah. And sometimes it’s a hard calling and can wear you down at because of that, that pushback. But when you see the victories out there where God pulls people through some, some deep struggles, that that’s just what kind of lifts you back up.

Sorry. Um, that I like what you said about not coming from it as like, Hey, we’re gonna teach you everything we, you know, we know, but we’re gonna, you know, come and share. We’re gonna, we’re gonna ask questions, we’re gonna lead a discussion. Um, I think it’s unique that your church even had a marriage ministry. ’cause not very many churches do.

Yeah. That was a blessing.

Um, it’s a huge blessing. Yeah. Our church did as well. And it was actually a huge catalyst for Jennifer and I finding healing in our marriage and us going this direction, you know, toward divorce and then being totally redirected. And so praise God for marriage ministries and churches and, um, I think more churches need to be, I think every church should have some, some form Yes. Of marriage ministry. And, um, not that anyone’s gonna be marriage experts per se, but people that love the Lord and want to get into the word of God. And discipleship at the end of the day, like you, you were talking about Michael, is, it’s about, you know, leading people to Christ and walking with Jesus. And so if we can do that in our marriages like it, the marriage is gonna get better. It’s gonna get stronger. So That’s really great.

(13:07)
I, I had a question about, um, so marriage ministry, you’re still in marriage ministry. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I’ve been in marriage ministry for years. You’ve been in it for years. Uh, you started off early right away, and you’re in, you’re in this marriage bible study and you’re just trying to be faithful. Um, how often did you find that talking about the truths and then living the truths? What, ’cause it’s much different, like living it out in your, in your marriage, did you find, not that you, you know, were broken or anything like that, but there those discrepancies of, like, you say one thing over here and you, you’re walking and discipling and, and you and it’s truth, and then you get challenged with it almost immediately, probably. Like, how, how often was that happening and what kinds of things were you seeing where you’re like, as you’re walking through your marriage, you’re like, oh, like here’s, here’s an example of what we were just talking about. How are we gonna, how are we per interpersonally in our marriage going to navigate this?

I have a good example. Um, so, you know, thinking about that sometimes it’s hard to apply what we know <laugh>, you know, we can, we can, we can know the word of God so deeply, but then we’re, we’re falling on our faces because we don’t know how to actually walk through difficulties. And marriage, I would say, you know, we were blessed to come in as strong believers. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I, I’m so thankful for the Lord doing that and having my season of singleness to be able to know God’s word deeply. And Michael knowing his, knowing God’s word as well. But, you know, we, we faced, um, struggles, um, you know, as we’re teaching different people through their different struggles, you know, there’s, there was some conviction on our part on things that we could do better through our communication. And also just, um, just times where we struggled, where we had job losses or, um, when we experienced, um, loss of, of having a baby, um, and, and having miscarriages. Um, and those difficult times, you know, you’re having to pour your heart into others and you see them just, you know, struggling, but then you’re struggling yourself and you’re like really just hanging onto God’s word. Mm-Hmm. Of like, you’re, you promised, Lord, your word is, is is unfailing.

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

And so we’re having to walk through things together, communicate, um, through difficult issues, difficult loss, um, sickness, a lot of things happening the very first three years of our marriage. And, um, on top of the fact that, you know, finally we get pregnant. But it’s, it was a lot to, to deal with and, and running into the church, to our friends and crying and, and also trying to apply what we’re teaching to ourselves and making sure that our marriage is healthy as well. And, you know, we’re not, we’re not perfect. No, nobody is. But, you know, there’s a lot that through marriage ministry convicts us as we’re learning that we have to also apply as we’re talking about it. Um,

Yeah. And you know, we’re, we’re open and honest with, with the marriage and discipleship classes that we teach that, that, uh, we do practice what we preach, but we don’t, we don’t do it perfectly. Right. And just like anybody else, what there’s, there’s <laugh>, there’s, there’s areas that we feel that we’re pretty strong in, you know, and there’s areas not so much. And we’ll be upfront today, this is one of the areas where we really struggle. I just remember recently, I was, we were just talking with somebody about how we need to date more, and it’s like, oh, we even teach this stuff and we don’t, we don’t get out there and date as much as we we should. And, and this person made the comment, yeah, you need to practice what you, you preach. And, and I’m like, and, and I’m like, you know that, that’s true.

(17:15)
But you know, that’s, that’s also an area where yes, we struggle and there will always be areas that we, we struggle in and there’ll be areas that we’re strong. And this, this is just not, this is not one of them. You know? And we go, we go through times where we are, are consistently dating. We’ll trade off with another couple to watch each other’s kids, and we’ll do that for a season. But then something breaks it up, life gets in there, and that person’s not able to do it for a little bit. Get outta the, get outta the habit, and we gotta get back in the habit again. You know? Mm-Hmm. And so we kind of, we struggle with that and going back and forth just with the busyness, with the busyness of life. And, you know, we can teach not only from our strengths, but we can also teach from our strength, our, our weaknesses and our failures.

(17:58)
And where, where we struggle in. And, and we gotta remember that as, as parents as well, when we’re discipling our children. ’cause a lot of times it’s like, man, I can’t disciple them on this topic because who am I to speak on this? Well, you know, if we failed in this area, we can speak from our experiences there and how we struggle and, and how God can help us pull through those, those struggles. So we, we can teach from both our strengths and our weaknesses. And we, we do both. And we’re upfront on what we are strong in and in areas that that, that we struggle at.

Amen. That’s, and it’s, it’s so true that, I mean, God, all throughout scripture, you see him using the failings of his people and other people to bring himself glory and to teach what’s true. And, uh, I always tell people about this, like, truth is, truth doesn’t mean it stop. Like, truth doesn’t stop being truth because I’m not living that way. Um, but what brings authority to the truth is walking in those truths. And so what we can teach from authority by do walking a certain way, taking the, taking the plank out of our eyes so we can see clearly. And then, uh, but at the end of the day, what the truth that we’re presenting isn’t our truth. It’s not our ideas. It’s not our, um, uh, i, uh, ministry. It’s, it’s the testimony of Jesus Christ. It’s the truth of the word of God.

(19:17)
So, like you said, you’re, you’re, you’re bringing people back to those truths. And there’s times that you struggle and there’s times that you don’t. And that’s, that’s reality. And it’s those experiences, and it’s those, it’s the ups and the downs that allow relatability, understanding, grace, mercy, all the things that are totally necessary for discipleship, <laugh>. ’cause we’re all, we’re all on a journey. We’re all in different places. And I’m, I might right now need a little bit more grace and mercy than I needed yesterday, but I definitely need it today. And then tomorrow might be you, and then the next day it’s gonna be someone else. And we’re always trying to point people in the, in the direction of the truth. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> not myself, the truth. Um, so that’s right. That’s really good. And that’s sounds like what you’re explaining.

Exactly. You know, and, and when you’re vulnerable, it, it helps other people be vulnerable as well. That Amen. We don’t have to be perfect here. We don’t have to put up this facade, uh, this presentation, this public presentation to everybody, that everything is okay and we’re in control in, in every way. ’cause then, you know, the whole point about discipleship is to, is to come alongside each other and to share life together. Mm-Hmm. And we wanna share the victories, and we all also wanna come alongside and help each other with our struggles. And we can’t do that unless we share those struggles. And, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, and it helps open people up. But, you know, we get, that’s one of the frustrations that we have in marriage ministry is a lot of times when people come to us, it’s after things have blown up.

Yeah.

And we’ve, and we’ve been over to their house. We’ve ministered to them. You know, we’re trying to I know.

Isn’t that frustrating?

And, and they just, everything just looks perfect. Their life is so together. And then everything blows up. And they tell us about all these huge things, these huge issues going on with their lives. It’s like, oh my goodness. Why did, why didn’t you let us know? Or you didn’t have to even let us know. Did you let anybody know, pastor, counselor, anybody? No. And it’s like, and you know, so many pastors, we had a pastor in a sermon one time who just laid out in front of all of us, said, look, I love you guys. Come to us with any problem at any time, but for the love of God, can, could you try to come to us before it gets so big and so entangled that it’s just so hard to deal with, deal with those little foxes before they, before they multiply and become huge foxes, then tons of foxes that are destroying the vineyards as Song of Solomon says. And, and, you know, that’s one of the frustrations in marriage. But you know, you, you definitely won’t get people to, to be vulnerable unless you as a teacher, lead that by being true vulnerable yourself. Mm-Hmm. And, and relating to them not only your victories and where you’re strong at, but also, hey, you know, this is where we struggle at. Mm-Hmm. And we’re asking you guys for advice.

Gosh, you’re so right. And I, man, I, I hope that my listeners, uh, hear that, that not to, not to let all of those little foxes, all those little things just continue to build up and, and feeling ashamed and not wanting to go ask for help and not wanting to go, uh, ask for prayer. Not wanting to go confess, you know, sins that you’re walking in and unrepentant about and waiting until it’s like too late, waiting until it blows up, waiting until everything boils over. And then finally, it’s, it’s un hideable. It’s like, well, now we gotta deal with it. No, no, no. The the gift of confession to one another that we might be healed. It was for a purpose. It was like, come together and share, as the Bible says, each other’s burdens. And gosh, there’s so many people that are afraid to, to be present, present themselves to anyone as less than perfect, which is so contrary to the reality of everyone’s life anyway.

(22:59)
Like, none of us are perfect. None of us have perfect marriages. None of us have like walk imperfection as Jesus did. None of us even speak with perfection. As James says, you know, one who controls his tongue is perfect. And it’s like none of us, none a single one of us. Only Jesus was the only one that controlled his tongue. And so the, the church is, the, the body of Christ is such a blessing to the body of Christ, that we can come to each other with our burdens, with our shortcomings, with our sin, and be rebuked, exhorted loved on, um, reminded of the truth, um, given grace and mercy and patience, and, and practicing all the gifts of the Holy Spirit as the Galatians teaches us. And so we, what you’re saying is so true that often it’s, it’s like, too late. It’s like, why didn’t you tell me before?

(23:50)
That’s, that’s really good. I hope everyone’s listening to that, that you would not wait until it’s too late that you would go outta your way. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to speak to someone. Uh, you guys currently in ma Marriage mania ministry, um, by the way, I want, I just, before I go onto the next question, I wanna ask, what’s with the mania part? What I, I’ll let you <laugh>. I IAnd it because you’re talking about like one thing over here, and then you in your life, it’s like, ugh, mania. Like the, the manic the, the chaos. That’s what I’m kind of thinking. Or the, the turmoil that could be there. What, what is, what are you going with mania. I, I understand, understand that. I’ll

Let you do that one. <laugh>. Yeah. May, maybe it’s just coming from my, my own kind of inward turmoil and angst that’s always going on in, in my mind and in family life. And, and, um, it, it started out actually as Kohler mania, where we, we, that was the name of our podcast in ministry. It’s like, welcome to our mania. As, as we we’re vulnerable, join our crazy mania to kind of disciple others in their mania. And, you know, we, we ended up switching it more to marriage mania. That, you know, that that kind of franticness that, that, that goes on in everyone’s life. And that’s, that’s our ministry to, to just kind of cut through that. And, uh, how can we walk alongside each other to cut through the mania that’s in all of our lives and in all of our marriages, in order to, you know, as you put it, you know, pursue God, you know, and, and the big things that God has in store for us. If, if we can, can kind of put a, some kind of control on all that mania and, and be operating in the Holy Spirit instead of in, in our flesh.

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(26:21)
Visit marriage after god.com/every and get 10% off your order today. There’s a, a verse that came to mind. It was, when Paul’s talking about singleness versus marriage, and like, you know, hey, it’s a, it’s a, the one that’s single, the one that’s not married, can focus on God and, and the things of God. And then, but the person that’s married needs to focus on the things of God and worldly things. Mm. Like, there’s the, they have a concern, they have concerns for the world. And I’m thinking of that mania of this, this dichotomy that needs to like, have a symbiotic relationship of, I have a family that needs to be taken care of. And there’s all of these, um, fleshly logistical things that I have to have, I have to take care of and are, and the wi wives have to think the same way.

(27:02)
You know, protection, food, clothing, house money, like these are all very like, worldly carnal things, but they’re necessary to have a functioning healthy family. And then you’re like, and we’re gonna serve the Lord and we’re gonna chase after him, and we’re gonna do ministry, and we’re gonna, you know, you have this, these two things that have to like come together. And Paul, Paul gave very clear sobering instructions. Like, Hey, marriage is good. Just know you have both of those perspectives that need to exist at the, in the same time. And so I, that’s what I was thinking of when I was hearing what you were talking about with mania. I was like, yep. That’s what it feels like. Actually. <laugh> all the time. <laugh>. Yep. That was good. So, question, uh, in your ministry, marriage mania ministry, you guys have been talking a lot about biblical roles, biblical roles within the home, within the marriage. And so I just wanna ask you, what, what does biblical rules mean to you guys, and how does that play out in your marriage?

Yeah. You know, and I know there’s, there’s a whole egalitarian complementarian debate out there in the, in the Christian community, the egalitarian view says that men and women are the same in every way. There’s, there’s differences between people. There’s no real distinguishable difference between men and women. The, the Complementarian view says God created men and women very differently. There are very distinguishable differences between men and women. We have very distinct physical differences, and we also have very distinct differences in how we see the world. We have different worldviews, we have different cultures, if you will. And, and in the Bible we have very different roles and commands from God. In order to compliment each other, we’re of equal worth. But we have very distinguishable differences. And we, of course, we, we hold the complementarian position as, as the only real biblical position. You have to ignore the Bible or twist it to make it say what you want it to say.

Yeah.

In order to come to an egalitarian conclusion that God didn’t create men and women, husbands and wives to be different. There, there are very specific commands for wives and husbands

Yep.

That are, that are very different. A set of commands for husbands and a set of commands for wives. God didn’t say, husbands and wives love and respect each other, submit to one another. Co-lead your family, treat each other with understanding. He doesn’t say that He tells believers to treat each other in certain ways, which we can apply to our marriages. But when it comes to husbands and wives, God very specifically says, wives do this, husbands do that. Yep. And they’re, they’re very different commands. You have in Ephesians five, Colossians three, one, Peter three. In very straightforward language, God says that husbands are the leaders, the head of the wives and the families. They’re to lead their families as Christ leads the church sacrificially doing what’s best for his wife and family. They’re to protect and provide agape love. Their wives, which is a very sacrificial servant.

(30:04)
Love that gives, doesn’t seek its own purposes. They are to live with their wives with understanding, not be harsh with them, treat their emotions delicately. Wives are to submit whoso in the Greek, which means to bring themselves under the authority of their husbands. They’re to treat their husbands with respect. Phileo love their husbands, which is a friendship, brotherly sisterly love. Be kind to them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, the wife is a picture of the church when she does this. And the husband is a picture of Jesus, the head of the church. That’s how God’s designs it. And here, the reason why we stress this so, so much is, you know, God’s way of doing things is best. And you know, we wanna follow God’s ways because we know that’s the best way to do things. He designed his world, he designed marriage. He knows how all of it works.

(30:51)
And I, I just remember in your book, you, you talked about how marriage is a team. And in order to, to operate effectively as a team, we need to know our responsibilities. And, you know, that’s why we stress the importance of Godly roles. We are to read the Bible, to discover what God is saying. And there are things that, that we all wrestle with in the Bible, but we need to wrestle with them and ask God for wisdom and understanding and work to align my view with the Bible. Not ignore the hard truths or twist the hard truths to be in line with, with my views. Um, ’cause being outside of God’s will is just not a good place to be. And, you know, and man has been rationalizing his own way forever to make his own way seem right. You know, if I want an egalitarian view, I’ll just make the Bible say that. I’ll ignore the very clear language that speaks to wives to do this and husbands to do that with, with very different commands. And just say, the Bible gives commands for both husbands and wives to co-lead, submit to one another, love and respect one another, and so on. You know, it’s, they, they’re like trying to make the, the Bible a document that changes with, with the culture.

And so I I, that

Was really good. By the way, <laugh>, <laugh>, and I a hundred percent agree with you on everything. Go good, Tanya. Sorry.

I was gonna say, to add to that, you know, you asked us how do we apply these roles to our marriage, our specific marriage. I mean, it’s not perfect, but, you know, I want to honor God. So as a wife, I have a role, and my role is to submit, to honor, to respect with God’s help. Um, and you know, of course, Michael is to love me as his own body, as it says in Ephesians. And so we, we’ve been teaching this and, and telling people, you know, if you’ve got these, um, crazy issues where you’re not honoring and respecting, of course you’re not gonna feel loved as a woman. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if you’re dishonoring your husband, you’re just gonna have a continuous cycle. And so we see a lot of that. And, you know, we’ve made it a, a, a very conscious effort at the very beginning of our marriage that we will honor each other.

(33:07)
We don’t speak low of each other. Um, just, you know, we could be mad at each other, but I’m just saying we Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> have never spoken, spoken any kind of bad words towards each other. Because what does it say, Ephesians 4 29, that our words should be, let no corrupt word come outta your mouth, but only what is edifying to build others up. And, you know, we don’t wanna tear each other down because we’re a team and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if, you know, if we’re, if we’re not working as a team, then our marriage is just gonna continue to be further apart. And so we, we see the con, I know I see it from a, a woman’s perspective as I talk to different women, you know, they’re not respecting their husbands. And so that’s how husbands feel, love, honor, respect, you know, letting them have that leadership role as God intended.

(34:01)
We’re taking away what God gave them as a man. God gave them the role to lead. And it goes back to Genesis, um, chapter three, where, you know, we, we fell there and mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, at, um, Eve ate the fruit and gave it to her husband. And so from there, you know, we’ve wanted to control, and, you know, I, I know I wanna control, and it’s hard. Um, but, you know, allowing our husbands to lead, allowing Michael to lead in decisions that may not work out. Um, you know, we have had some situations where it did not work out. Um, but I never said, look at you, look at the bad decision you made for us. And here we are. No, I just kind of said, okay, well, God, you, you know, you’re gonna work this out. You’re

Gonna work out sounds up and go on with the next one, <laugh>.

Right. But, you know, as, as a helper from Genesis two 18, God made a helper. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> for her husband.

A perfect fit, mate.

Yes. A perfect fit. And so to help and honor and encourage him is what I need to do. And so, have I done that perfectly the last 11 years? No. Well, yes, I have <laugh>, of course. Perfect. No, I haven’t. But you know, it’s really just walking with him, even if he takes different, uh, directions for our family, but, you know, as the helper

You feel are the right directions.

Yes. Um, or the right directions. Um, so like, even as a, a wife, like if I feel like, oh, that’s not the right thing, like I can respectfully express it. But if he feels that God is saying, we need to do this, then

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

I have to submit. And so we’ve, we’ve done that and we’ve tried our very best to abide in what God is saying. Not perfectly, but prayerfully,

There’s two comments I wanna make make on this. ’cause this is beautiful, by the way, and it’s necessary so much, um, now probably more than ever. Um, the, you mentioned Genesis. We, we just, we’ve been going through Genesis with our kids. Mm-Hmm. And talking about creation, talking about Adam and Eve and the fall and all that. And when God gives out the curses, he says, you know, your, your desire will be for your husband, essentially, that you will desire his position. Mm-Hmm. Um, and then the, the husband will have to work the ground by the sweat of his brow. Right? Yeah. And, and if you look, Eve was the one that ate first, but Adam was the one that was given the law. God, God said to Adam before Eve was even created, you don’t eat of this tree. And so he didn’t lead then as he should have.

(36:54)
And so, and then Eve is gonna desire his position as a curse. And what God’s offered us in the New Testament, through Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit, is the solution to the curse is like, you, you, you didn’t walk that way. They didn’t walk this way. But with Christ, you can walk. This way is surrendering in these two things where it’s, and it’s so interesting that it’s exactly the things that both women and men struggle with. Men, although we are, you could be an alpha male if you want. And you know, it doesn’t matter what type of man you think you are, we don’t wanna spiritually lead like in our flesh. Like we might wanna lead in other ways. I want to have my things. I want to, I want to be not told what to do. I want, which is not leading, that’s not, that’s not leading.

(37:41)
Uh, but spiritual leadership is like the very last thing that a man is naturally going prone toward spiritual leadership. And then a woman, uh, willfully submitting to a husband is not the natural position of a woman. And so the, that, that’s the curse at play in the flesh. But when the Holy Spirit gets involved, and we, when we submit our ourselves to the Lord, that the, the solution, the cure to the curse begins to manifest, begins to show up in our relationships. And so it’s actually a really beautiful thing. What woman would not want their husband to truly lead? Now they might not act like they want them to, but, you know, I’m listening to Michael talk about how he’s wanting needs to love you and serve you and take care of you and protect you and wash you by the water with the word and, and be as if a representation of Christ in his home. Who doesn’t want that <laugh>. Right?

Right.

And then what, what man doesn’t want a woman who trusts and follows, you know, that’s, that, that was, that those, those things are what make a man feel huge.

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Big. When a, when a when a wife treats him that way, it makes us feel like we’re, we’re monsters. Like, not bad monsters, but like, we’re like, we’re, we’re big and we’re powerful and we’re strong. And we, and we feel like courageous and bold and ready, and ready to take on anything is amazing. And then the last thing I wanted to to say on that was, uh, I’m, I’m losing it actually. <laugh>. Oh, well, I lost the thought. That’s okay. Why don’t you keep going with this? ’cause this is beautiful talking

About the rules. I was gonna, the rules too. He who finds a wife finds a good thing. Right? Amen. And so, one of the things with the biblical role of a wife, just kind of thinking through that just came to my mind is we are blessings to our husbands. Yeah. But we can also be that drip. And, you know, by, by not submitting, you know, by, by constantly putting the, the arm, the, you know Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> just saying no. And so it’s just, it’s one of those things that we just have to constantly surrender. If this is not something that we do, um, very well at, we have to surrender to the Lord, help me to submit, help, you know, my husband to love me, because

Yeah.

Um, it’s just that constant circle. And I just, I don’t know. I think the Lord is also through our Bible study that we’ve written, you know, he’s just showing me so much as well that even though I’ve tried over these years, like I can do better. And just knowing that, um, that verse in Solomon where he says, I’ve set a seal upon my heart. Like the Shulamite says, I am the one that should have all of your tension. Like I am your wife, I am your wife to be. And, um, in my Bible study, we’re talking about the seal upon a heart. And I’m like, I wanna put Michael as a seal upon a heart, just as God has put his Holy Spirit and sealed my heart.

Mm-Hmm.

And said, Tanya, you are mine. And so the same thing with a marriage covenant. Michael, you are mine. Tanya, you are mine. We are sealing each other. And, and that I feel like, you know, we want to, um, abide in the biblical roles that God has given us in every possible way with his strength and his might.

And I, I think practically speaking, we need to remember that life is hard. Yes. <laugh>, you know, applying this stuff is not easy. Right. You know, we live in a fallen world and, you know, marriage is hard, uh, trying to deal with the dynamics of diff different personalities and such, and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, but the first thing is to know the word of God. The second thing then is to apply it, you know? And, and applying it is not easy in the day to day fallen world. And it’s, and the sticky business of living life together. But knowing the word of God goes a long way. Because every one of our actions, if we have the word of God on the forefront of our minds, because we’re meditating on it, we can filter everything through the word of God. A what would Jesus do kind of thinking.

(42:01)
And, and this is why proper biblical interpretation is so important. We need to apply the actual Word of God and not our own creation of it. And, and that steers our decisions and helps keep our emotions in check, in check. And by being believers, we have the Holy Spirit living within us to convict us of how we’re contributing to issues in the marriage. If, if we’ll listen and to that still small voice behind us and within us telling us which way to go. Again, if we’ll listen to the Holy Spirit. But it’s, it’s a constant struggle between the spirit and the flesh. For, for example, I know, I know God’s word tells me to lead in a way that is best for my wife and family. Mm-Hmm. Sacrificially with an agape love that gives, and not just to get my own way, but my flesh wants to get my own way,

(42:43)
You know? Yeah. And Tanya can’t necessarily see my internal struggle and may only see the outcome of my decision or behavior, which is less than perfect. And I, I think I’m trying, but she didn’t see what my flesh really wanted to do, and how my spirit actually won out. For instance, as, as she’s helping me give me advice and correcting me and steering me. She’s, she’s being the helper as God has designed her to be. But as the leader, I’m feeling controlled. You know, I’m feeling criticized. I’m feeling like I’m being treated like a child. I’m being disrespected, and my my feelings in reality wanna throw a chair through the window, <laugh>. And I’m congrat congratulating myself for recognizing that she’s not controlling me. She’s trying to help me stay calm, stay in the spirit. Don’t actually throw that chair through the window. <laugh>, she loves me, she’s on my team.

(43:31)
Stay quiet. Your flesh is strong right now and wants to come out in your words. And I’m like, victory. I kept my mouth shut. The spirit won over my flesh. But she doesn’t see that internal struggle and what I see as a victory, because all she sees is a person who went completely silent. She’s like, what happened? Why won’t you talk? Why weren’t, why aren’t you participating in this conversation? Why did you change? Taking a minute, you look angry. Are you upset <laugh>? You know, I’m just trying to help. But by knowing that she’s designed by God to be a helper, I can see that’s where her heart is. She is genuinely trying to help, even though my emotions feel controlled, criticizing, you know, and by knowing God’s design, I get insights into her heart and can see her genuine, loving attentions. And, and Tanya, by knowing that God designed me to be a leader who resists being criticized and steered and controlled.

(44:20)
She can adjust her communication to come across more respectful and less critical and less bossy. She can understand why I just went silent. So we can both see each other trying, which goes a long way because we won’t do these things perfectly. But God’s word can give us insights into one another’s hearts and help us adjust our thinking accordingly, and help our spirits win out against the flesh. ’cause the problem is the flesh, every time, if an argument blew up, is because our flesh won out in the moment. Our flesh overcame the spirit because we squelched the spirit. Because we wanted to give our voice, give voice to our flesh. Mm-Hmm. Understanding how God designed us can give us a lot of understanding and direction.

And I would imagine the best way, like, so the husband’s wives that are listening, they’re thinking, my husband doesn’t lead well, and my wife doesn’t respect me and submit to me the best way to, to start growing in this is for the husband to constantly go to their wife and tell ’em to submit, and for the wife to go to their husband and say, you need a Sally lead. Right? That’s <laugh>, that’s the best way to do this. I’m making, I’m making a little tongue in cheek joke about it. But

No, that’s not the best way <laugh>.

I, I think the best way to deal with it is I, there’s a central verse that I keep coming to every time I turn around James one 19 through 20, be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. If we could just live by that principle, I mean, there’s many principles that could help us. And so that’s a good one. But if we could live by that principle alone, I think that one alone could go a long way. Instead, you know, we’re usually not listening to each other. I’m just trying to convince you of my position. And, and, and you’re doing the same. And none of us are listening and, and we stay in an impasse. But if we would just listen, genuinely listen and ask a lot of questions, and listen to the answer, to understand the other person’s perspective and why they think the way they think, and how they come to the conclusion they’re coming to, it’s amazing how a great answer can present itself that benefits everyone a win-win solution, husbands, as a leader, the head of the wife is Ephesians five tells us, are responsible for facilitating these types of discussions, learning conversations that says, tell me more.

(46:30)
I wanna understand your position, I want to understand you. I think that the husbands, if they could take leadership in that facilitating that learning discussion, things could go a long way.

Yeah. And I was gonna say, that was so funny because <laugh>, to tell a husband to lead is like putting like more fuel to the fire <laugh>. I think that would just cause a lot of issues. Um, but, you know, I think, um, I think a lot of times we take for granted our spouse too. Um, we don’t have the gratitude. And so when you have the disrespect, the dishonor, nobody’s submitting, there’s no appreciation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, then it just, it feels like, you know, mundane. And, you know, why would you wanna submit, you know, or what we hear all the time. Well, he needs to submit to me. I’m like, but you’re the wife. <laugh> men don’t submit to, to their wives. Yes, they do. Um, no, but I think too is like adding gratitude. Like beginning to appreciate, like if you, if you wanna start to try to submit to your husband, you, you need to learn to respect.

(47:42)
How do you do that? Start looking at the things that, that you loved about that person or your husband. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> when you first got married. And start appreciating them. Start saying little kind things, even though it’s hard. Say some kind things throughout the day. Thank you for taking the trash out today. Thank you for taking care of the kids. Just little kind things that will help you over time, begin to respect. And then your husband will begin to see, wow, she’s noticing this and she’s noticing that. And you know, I, I think I’m not saying that that’s the, the solution, of course, it’s always pray, pray and allow God to, uh, evaluate your heart, not your husband. Don’t go in there and start praying, Lord, he just has so many things wrong with him, <laugh>. And you know, he just is not doing what he needs to be doing. He needs to be leading. No, God, show me where I have failed as a wife. Show show. You know, if you’re a husband, show me where I have failed to love my wife. Um, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and these things, God can help us through prayer and then showing gratitude and then starting to ask, God, I want to submit. I want to love my wife. And over time, I believe God will, he will answer. If you’re desperately seeking him, he will answer and he will help you.

Yeah. I mean, we gotta let the Holy Spirit do his job. I mean, we gotta a helper out there that’s supposed to convict us of sin. I sometimes we try to do the Holy Spirit’s job. It’s like the Holy Spirit’s taking too long. I need to get on this person and just write ’em until they finally do what I want them to do. And that, that just does not work out well at all. Even if you get the person to do what you want to do, there are bad side effects in the long term. I

Think of, I think of what James says, he said, you know, you have not, ’cause you ask now and when you, and when you do ask and you pray, you ask with wrong motives to spend what you get on your own, you know, desires. And it’s the same with what you’re just talking about. Like, we, we want our spouse to change, not because it’s good for them, but because it’s going to benefit ourselves.

Right.

And but what you’re saying, Tanya, is go on the Lord and saying, Lord, I want to change because it’s what’s good for me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it’s what you desire. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that it, it goes back to what Jesus talks about with the, our, the plan guy. Like the point is, is like we can’t even see clearly. We think we see our spouses and so clearly don’t we like, oh, we see all their shortcomings and then well, we’re, we’re just so blind to ourselves. And, uh, it’s, it’s so good what you guys are saying about going in prayer, which is so necessary for any of this to work as just abiding in Christ, coming to him and saying, God, I, I have no idea what to do. So many of my prayers throughout my marriage have been, God. I have no idea. I literally don’t know what to do right now. <laugh>. I don’t know what to say. I don’t know how to behave. I, I don’t know. I just, and I’m like, here I am. I have no idea. <laugh>.

And I love what Pastor Jack Hibbs says. Um, I love pastor, pastor Jack Hibbs. I love him. But he, he says, um, we are all SIN positive.

Oh man,

Sin. It’s true. <laugh> <laugh>. And I’m like, it’s true. And we have sin. And our sin can corrupt our marriage. And so we have to constantly bring it to the Lord.

Fight it.

SIN positive.

Yeah, it’s true. So you guys have shared some really good stuff. And I just pray that everyone that’s been listening has been encouraged by it. I’ve been encouraged by it. I could, you guys love the word of God. It just, it’s boiling out of you guys. Everything you guys are saying, it’s like, it’s like then this scripture and then that scripture. And I just, I wanna encourage everyone to that, to get into the word of God and that you can have what they have ’cause you, the more you put in you, the more it’s gonna come outta you. Um, I just wanna ask you guys, before we end here, what’s one thing you wanna encourage our audience with in their marriages? We we’re talking about biblical roles, we’re talking about, you know, starting marriage ministries, but like for them right now where they’re at, how do you wanna encourage them?

Do you wanna go or do you want me to go? Go ahead. So I would say, you know, pray, um, and, and one of the biggest things I just spoke about was allow God to evaluate your heart. Because we have to come before the Lord and share what is going on with us. ’cause he already knows. He just wants you to be, you know, open with him. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, share your heart. Share what is going on in your marriage. Um, and don’t put these high expectations on your spouse. Don’t expect him to change overnight. You need to change, and I think that is the most important. And be a forgiving person in your marriage. Amen. Like, be the first to forgive, even though it may be hard, you might feel really hurt, but forgive Jesus said if we, for if we forgive, then we show that we are, or he, he’s, there’s a couple verses If we, um, if we love, we show that we are his disciples.

Mm-Hmm.

<affirmative>. So we have to show that love. But then if we forgive, he forgives us. It’s just a great reminder of how much he loves us. And he gave his son for us because we’ve accepted him. If we’ve repented of our sins to accept him as our Lord and Savior. But to forgive your spouse, it’s you’re hurting your own body because you’re one. So when you’re regretting to, or having a grudge towards your spouse or being unkind, you’re being unkind to yourself.

Yep.

And so go before the Lord and ask for forgiveness, and then begin to pray and seek and look at those good things in your spouse. And learn what it means to have a, a solid biblical role. Not what the world says, because the world will tell you, you don’t need to submit you, you can do all these things. Just do what you feel. But that’s not what God calls us. And what does God work do? God calls us to be different. God calls us to be holy and set apart from the world. And so as marriages, as a husband and wife, God wants us to be holy. And in that we seek him and put him in the middle through prayer, through repentance, through forgiveness, and looking at those things of gratitude towards each other.

I would just, just add weight on the Lord. You know, just don’t forget to wait on the Lord, whatever your season, your marriage is in. ’cause marriages go through seasons. They go through happy, joyous, close seasons, and they go through more distant seasons. And studies show that most marriages go through a season that really tests the, the health and the life of the marriage. But studies also show if you stick it out and you persevere. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it’s better that, um, happy, happy marriages are, are usually on the other side of that. And just to hang in there Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> trust in the Lord. And as David said, I would’ve lost hope. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if I had not believed that, I would’ve seen the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living, living. Wait on the Lord, trust in the Lord. I say again, wait again on the Lord. It’s, it’s, it’s encouragement to us all. It’s hard when you’re going through it because you don’t see a light at the end of the tunnel. But, but God sees the light. Yes. And just continue praying. Continue trusting in the Holy Spirit to bring healing in his timing. And, and don’t, uh, don’t force the issue by doing the Holy Spirit’s work for him. Just, just wait, wait on him. And trust

And have, have accountability too. Like if you have a pastor, go to a go to the pastor or

Yes. Seek help. Seek community. Don’t just go through things alone. Don’t put on a facade that everything is just find, be vulnerable. Find, find the right people to be vulnerable with. But go seek help with somebody, good, godly counsel, good friend, godly friends that can support you.

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

To stick it out. That’s one of the key things that, that marriages, that stick it out that they had is, is that good friends that walked alongside them didn’t make it easy for ’em. Listen to ’em on the phone. You could call ’em in the middle of the night and they wouldn’t say, Hey, yeah, you ought to get a divorce from this person. No. They said, you can do this. Hang in there. God’s God’s got your back. He sees you. Yeah. Amen. And he can pull you through.

Yeah. I’m, I always, I never wanna be the one that made it easy for someone to give up of my friends. And so when, whenever there’s people going through stuff, I’m like, yeah, we need to love him. We need to have grace and we need to have patience, but we cannot make it easy for them. <laugh> like to, to give up. We need to make it hard for them to quit.

Yes.

So amen to that. Uh, Michael, Tanya, uh, this was such an awesome conversation, very, very encouraging. Will you please share how everyone can find out about where to find you?

Well, we have, everything is marriage mania <laugh>. So we have a website, marriage ww dot marriage mania, um, ministry.com. We’re on Facebook, um, Instagram and YouTube. We also have our podcast on all podcast outlets. Um, and yeah.

And you got a new book that, is it available on Amazon? What’s it called? What’s it called?

Yes. So we have the helper, the role of a biblical wife based off of Genesis two 18 Bible study. It’s a seven week Bible study where for wives, but we also encourage husbands to kind of understand that role too. And, uh, that is available on Amazon. And, uh, hopefully soon we’ll have the, um, biblical husband role. So we’ll have that

Very soon. I’ll put the links in the show notes for all of these things so you guys can find my friend’s Marriage Mania Ministry online. Um, Michael Tanya, thank you so much. I pray that you guys just have a blessed day, and I thank you for blessing in my community and my audience with the wisdom that you guys have.

Thank you, Aaron. Such an honor.

Do you desire to pray more for your spouse? Do you desire to pray more with your spouse? We understand that you may not know where to start, or maybe you feel uncomfortable praying, or maybe you don’t know what to pray, or maybe you simply want to add something more to your current prayer life. This is why we wrote the Marriage Gift 365 prayers for our Marriage. We desire that it would be used as a daily reminder and catalyst for you and your spouse to grow a dynamic and consistent prayer life together. This book is a compilation of 365 unique and powerful prayers that cover a range of diverse topics that every marriage deals with. You can read it alone, or ideally you read it with your spouse. Also, we hope that the topics that are brought up in these prayers would become a starting point for deeper and more intimate conversations with your spouse and a desire to seek God on these matters together. Visit the marriage gift.com today and order your copy and give your marriage the greatest gift, powerful and meaningful prayer. Visit the marriage gift.com today.